Learning Sabre?

[QTPie]

Thinking about starting to learn sabre. Am a pretty successful foil fencer, but getting rather stale/bored and a bit fed-up with the new (or not so new!) foil timings.

Thinking that a "new challenge" (i.e. learning something new) may be the way to go and sabre seems more logical than epee.

Any advice for foilists learning sabre? Any similarities (with foil that I can take advantage of?)? Any things to "watch out for" (common problems for foilists)?

QT

[Peach]

Originally Posted by QTPie

Thinking about starting to learn sabre. Am a pretty successful foil fencer, but getting rather stale/bored and a bit fed-up with the new (or not so new!) foil timings.

Thinking that a "new challenge" (i.e. learning something new) may be the way to go and sabre seems more logical than epee.

Any advice for foilists learning sabre? Any similarities (with foil that I can take advantage of?)? Any things to "watch out for" (common problems for foilists)?

QT

I'm a sabre fencer, and a number of foilists at our club suit up for sabre on occasion, either for entertainment, because there aren't many foilists around, or because they want to work on their footwork.

Some tips:
1. Sabre fencers don't actually whack, even if it seems that way from outside. Don't raise your hand. Relax your shoulder. Your hand should move smoothly forward in a straight line just as it should in a direct foil attack, although in sabre the blade should be at an angle. Squeeze gently with your fingers in the finish of the attack. Point attacks are perfectly acceptable and will be awarded if done correctly.
2. You don't have to look like Tinkerbell. Your footwork does not need to be long--in fact, shorter is better. A change of tempo from slow to fast finishing with a short lunge is far more effective than a loooong lunge. When I fence foil fencers in sabre, they often hit me with the first lunge. Then I adjust my distance or take the blade.
3. Even though it may look as if sabre fencing is simple, it can be very complex. Those simultaneous actions are used to set up the next action. Counter-time, feint-in-tempo, attacks in preparation, tempo changes, stop-hits, counter-attacks, and many other tactics are a big part of the game just as they are in foil, and strategy is just as essential as in the other weapons. Anyone who referees both sabre and foil can tell you, however, that the timing and distance of these actions are different for the different weapons.

Have fun!

[Inquartata]

Additionally:

Sabre is very fast-moving. There is seldom the time to pause and deliberate about what one is going to do next that one has in foil. Form your plans before the ref says fence and then try to carry them out; beyond that you need good instinctive reactions ( created by practice, practice, practice ).

A beat on the opponent's forté WILL be called a your opponent's parry if the ref is decent.

Remember, the passe-avant and fleche are prohibited and will draw you cards. Lots of foilists have trouble adjusting to this at first.

Immediate ripostes are becoming more perilous due to the lock-out time. Do them if the distance is right, otherwise watch out for a stop.

These "marching attacks" we hear so much about from foilists: we don't have them. We call them "preparations". And advancing with a bent arm or drawing the arm back as you advance will not be adjudicated as in foil. Also "preparation".

Remember that the arm is target, in fact a better one than the body in many cases. The head too is target.

Point attacks are of limited usefulness. Cut. It's not unlike the first part of a flick, so it shouldn't be too problematic...you just don't need to make the tip whip around, so the terminal arrest is unnecessary.

[whtouche]

I've been trying to think about all my experiences in fencing or watching foilists fence sabre to figure out common mistakes and come up with a kindof a hypothesis that would be interesting if it bore out.

In the past, with foilists being accustomed to being able to finish with a flick, they would make marching attacks that we all know about with their arm drawn way back to prevent their blade from being taken. To me this usually looks like a straight line from their elbow to the tip of the blade, usually pointed not quite at the ceiling but somewhere between it and their opponant.
Alot of foilists making an attack in sabre then would maintain a similar arm position resulting a big arc-ing cut that would be easy to parry if the timing weren't so funky.
This has been my experience in the past.

I hypothesize then that the new timings should make foilists better sabre fencers. Why, you ask?
Well, it seems logically to me at least, that the new timings would force foilists to keep their points in front of them more, ready to hit their opponant with a straight attack when the need arises. This is very similar to the most efficient way in making a touch in sabre. The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line, so if we do half the work of the cut with the extension so that the actual cut (the squeeze of the fingers) need travel minimal distance, then not only is that attack faster it also provides deeper tactical posibilities.

For example, the best way to make a head cut is to relax your blade forward to the normal 45 degree or whatever angle is usually considered an attack, then extend so that your tip is a few inches above your opponants head, and squeeze. Compare this to extending the cutting edge of the blade forward and squeezing, which results in more travel time for the foible of the blade and a larger arc, and you can see which is more efficient.

How does this relate to foil?
Pretty easily, I think. What you want to do is make sure when you are attacking your blade is not in a preparatory angle, ie you aren't pointing it staight up or some equivelant. When attacking, relax so your point is pointed at a 45 degree angle forward, but obviously remember not to have your arm extended until you finish your attack.
Then, when finishing, with advance lunge for example, extend so that your point comes close to your opponant; think of it as just barely exceeding the verticle plane of his or her body as in the head-cut example, then squeeze.

It would be best to have a coach or experienced sabre fencer show uou exactly what position your hand should be in for all the cuts, but that's a good way to get started.
I echo the above sentiment about not making point attacks, then are ineffective and painful for the most part. But going on what I said above, if I typed it clearly enough, you should be able to harnass your foil instincts by making point attacks that "miss" and turning them into perfect cuts.

As for the tactical possibilities this creates, it encourages your opponant to close distance for you because it makes your blade look enticing. If your opponant searches for your blade, feel free to make a disengage and cut to their 3, assuming both like-handed fencers. If they don't search, finish straight.

Becca Ward does all this very well and if you watch clips from the world championships available free online you should see what I mean.

Hope that helps and you were able to read through it all...

[JasminaJ]

I would add- there is the element of temperament.Saberists have a temperament that serves them well in saber. Foilists and epeeists don't always make the best saberists. My coach says saberists have a certain coolness under pressure. They don't take attacks personally-and stay very controlled in the heat of battle.
That said- I know many vets who do all three weapons very well!
Both sides to every story, I guess.

[KD5MDK]

I find a number of sabre fencers, especially beginners, completely lack the agression it take to fence sabre properly (in the common style). I'm not saying that you should always hurl yourself down strip as soon as the command "fence" is given, but a good sabre fencer knows when they see a preparation, when their opponent falls short, and they know to capitalize on it. When you have priority, it's your job to take advantage of that and hit the opponent. I tear my hair when I see someone chase their opponent down the strip, and then right when they have them pinned against the end line or something, stop and wait for them to do something.

[QTPie]

Wow, thank you all so much for your replies: really interesting and makes a lot of sense (including whtouche's very detailed reply).

Sounds very interesting . I don't lack aggression and fighting spirit. Am finding the new foil timings frustrating because they really take the advantage away from the attacker... am hoping that the new sabre timings still give some advantage to the attacker or, at least, the agreesive fencer. Obviously it isn't that simple, but...

Definitely intend to give sabre a good try in a few months (might give me a different perspective, if nothing else...)

Thanks,
QT