Buying first set of foils

[_fence(1)]

Hello,

I'm looking to buy my first set of electriic foils (probably from Absolute) and have a couple of questions:

1) What is the difference between insulated and non-insulated grips? Why would one choose one over another?

2) French points, german points, british points, screwless points? Which one to choose?

3) Grip sizes - my glove size is 8/8.5, do I need smallm medium, or large grip?

4) As I'm just starting going to competitions - I probably do not need FIE blades, correct?

Thank you!

[SJCFU#2]

1. Get an insulated grip for foil - otherwise you will have to add your own insulation to the extremities of the grip (see m.13).

2. What do you want and how much are you willing to spend. Many individuals favor German tips (better machining makes for smoother travel). Many clubs favor French tips (cheaper and the screw heads don't get mashed). And of course, some people swear by Leon Paul (English). You may want to consider getting whatever you club-mates are using - otherwise you will want to keep your own supply of spare parts.

3. Depends on the grip and the manufacturer. Maybe you should ask your coach for recommendations regarding what grip might suit you best.

4. FIE blades are not required for USFA competition.

[larkmaj]

From american fencers supply:

Choosing a grip that fits According to the rules, the fencer's thumb should be no further back from the guard than 2cm (3/4"). The thumb should be just touching the guard when relaxed, not stretching forward. The most popular grips for competitors are the Visconti and the Belgian types, including the SchermaSport. A pistol grip should not fill the entire hand; space should be left between the palm and grip itself, big enough for a finger to fit, or a roll of coins. The most common grip for beginners is still the French grip, and it is often used for the first 6 months to 1 year to develop hand strength and dexterity.

General guidelines for grip sizing:

Glove size: 6 or 7 = Visconti extra-small, SchermaSport small

Glove size 7 or 8 = Visconti small, Belgian Standard, SchermaSport medium

Glove size 8 or 9 = Visconti small, Belgian Standard

Glove size 9 or 10 = Visconti medium, Belgian Modern, SchermaSport medium, German, Rambeau

Glove size 10 or 11 = Visconti large, Russian, Belgian Large, SchermaSport large

Please note that most top competitors use grips that are smaller than the suggested above to keep the grip more in their fingers for better control; these people already know their grip size and have very strong trained hands. The above guidelines are intended for the novice buying their first pistol grip.

That may help a bit for the grips.

FIE stamped blades theoretically last longer, usually the extra lifetime is worth the price. So if longevity is an issue and you have the money you may want to consider it.

[El Chucko]

Hello,

I'm looking to buy my first set of electriic foils (probably from Absolute) and have a couple of questions:

1) What is the difference between insulated and non-insulated grips? Why would one choose one over another?

2) French points, german points, british points, screwless points? Which one to choose?

3) Grip sizes - my glove size is 8/8.5, do I need smallm medium, or large grip?

4) As I'm just starting going to competitions - I probably do not need FIE blades, correct?

Thank you!

1) Grips: Insulated grips are the way to go. Without insulation, your grip will ground out when you inadvertenty touch it to your lame on older scoring machines. Not everyone has the newest machines, so just get the insulated grips to be safe.

2) Points: Get whatever is most common at your club. If you need an extra screw, you can then easily get one from a friend.

3) Grip size: When in doubt, they say smaller is better. Your thumb should be able to touch the pad, but without being crunched up.

4) Blades: Get cheaper blades. As a beginner, you don't probably know what you like yet. Until you develop a preference for a certain balance, feel, etc., buy cheap. Plus, as a beginner, you will probably beat the heck out of your first few weapons. Experiment with your friends' gear before you spend huge money on your own weapons.

Good luck!

[KD5MDK]

You'll need at least two weapons, probably 3 (so if one breaks at the practice before your big competition, you don't have to buy a brand new one first thing in the morning.) Given that, it's probably best to start with cheaper blades and more weapons, and later upgrade to better blades as they break.

[larkmaj]

1) Grips: Insulated grips are the way to go. Without insulation, your grip will ground out when you inadvertenty touch it to your lame on older scoring machines. Not everyone has the newest machines, so just get the insulated grips to be safe.

Either way it is still technically required in the rules to have the extremeties of the foil grip to be insulated.

[penguin_2000]

I disagree about not getting the FIE blades. FIE blades are totally worth the money.

1) The non-FIE blades are light compared to FIE blades, so when you switch eventually (and most people will, see 4.), you'll have to re-adjust yourself to the different weight/balance.
2) FIE blades are more firm (see 1.), so you have better point control.
3) They don't get bent up _quite_ as easily... though they WILL still get wierd curves in them.
4) FIE blades don't break nearly as often. What you pay extra up front will be repaid in fewer broken blades. If it ONLY breaks proportionally to its cost, you'll still save yourself the aggravation of rewiring and putting together new foils.

[El Chucko]

Either way it is still technically required in the rules to have the extremeties of the foil grip to be insulated.

I can't find this in the current rulebook. I just looked throughout the materials section. Please assist.

[larkmaj]

I can't find this in the current rulebook. I just looked throughout the materials section. Please assist.

What is the date of the version to which you are refering? The current one on the USFencing website is 9/05. The rule in question is clearly stated under m.13

(h) The insulation of the barrel, the blade and the grip
m.13 The body of the barrel and the foil blade for a length of 15 cm
from the barrel, as well as the pommel or the rear extremity of
the handle, must be entirely covered with insulating material
(insulating tape, gummed paper, Sellotape, plastic material or
varnish).

[El Chucko]

Thanks. Musta missed it.

[Larrison]

I'm going to echo some of the other comments..

1) Get an insulated grip.

2) Tips: Get whatever is most common at your club or with your friends. When in doubt ask your local club armorer.

3) Grip size: My recommendation is try a bunch of them -- from other folks at the club or club armory if you can. You need to pick one that feels right. At one point I took a friend to a local large tournament just to make sure the grip they got was one they felt comfortable with. The vendor there had a variety of types and sizes, and he was able to try a bunch and pick the one he liked the best. Of course, the vendor was happy too, since he bought 3 complete weapons on the spot, and since we weren't pushy on time (folks in the tournament were first priority of course), he had a couple of hours to make them up. But it was business for him as well..

4) Blades: I've had very good luck with STM blades. I've got one practice dry foil that has a 20 year old STM blade in it, and it gets used for at least 90 minutes a week. As noted in other comments, don't spent a lot of money to lock yourself into a supremely expensive blade (or set of equipment) right off -- you'll figure out what you like the best and what works for you, and then you'll want to switch over to that. So starting out with good quality, but not top-of-the-line blades isn't a bad thing.

I'd suggest at least 1 dry practice blade, plus 2 electric blades to be made up into complete weapons for your bag. If you're confident you're going to be doing much more electric work than dry fencing then go for 3 electric blades. But I usually suggest this after folks have gotten a good feel for the grip they like and are comfortable with the expense of having 3 electrics made up. I also usually have a complete spare electric blade (wired with the electric tip already on) in my bag and a couple of basic tools -- just in case I need it.

[Allez]

1) Insulated grips are for foil. Non-insulated grips are for epee.

2) Just starting out, you certainly won't notice much of a difference between the different points. Everyone has their own preferences, but I like LP tips overall myself (their screws are the best and you can use them for both LP foil and epee points). That said, you should try to minimize your costs. Get a solid brand name for durability. I have found that cheap knock-offs aren't worth it when it comes to wiring. And yes, if people you fence with all use a certain type of tip, that would be a significant externality to consider.

3) I'm a glove size larger than you and I use a 'large'. I would recommend that you purchase a medium. That will probably fit you and you can always go to a large if it's too tight.

4) You do not need an FIE blade for competing in the US. I normally recommend that fencers just starting out purchase as cheap as possible. An STM non-FIE blade is durable enough for casual use and reasonably priced from ELI and other places. However, if you are very enthusiastic about the sport, practice more than once a week and don't mind spending the money, a maraging steel blade blade might be a good investment. It should last you a good bit longer.

[Slim]

What is the date of the version to which you are refering? The current one on the USFencing website is 9/05. The rule in question is clearly stated under m.13

Interesting. My kids use non-insulated foil grips without any additional insulation and have fenced at NACs and no one has ever commented on the grip insulation. I've seen the directors lift up the pad to check the insulation on the wire, but never a comment on the grip.

[rsy]

Interesting. My kids use non-insulated foil grips without any additional insulation and have fenced at NACs and no one has ever commented on the grip insulation. I've seen the directors lift up the pad to check the insulation on the wire, but never a comment on the grip.

The reason is that with the foil circuitry that was used on the machines some years ago, when the grip was grounded to the lame, the lame grounded out and the fencer could not be scored upon. This was especially a problem when a salt bridge formed up the fencer's arm and on-target hits (especially on the old TCA club boxes) would intermittenly not light up the machine.

But that circuitry was changed and now if the grip shorts out to the lame, instead of grounding out the lame, it does the opposite and extends the fencer's target to the weapon and guard. If a fencer is foolish enough to chance extending his target because he doesn't use an insulated grip, most refs will not stop him. It's the same logic of letting a foil pass inspection even though there is not enough tape oin the tip; it only hurts the fencer with the infraction.

-r

[_fence(1)]

Hmm, why doest it matter if you don't have enogh tape at the end of your foil?

[_fence(1)]

And one more question - what is the difference between German Point and V2 German Point?

[KD5MDK]

Hmm, why doest it matter if you don't have enogh tape at the end of your foil?

The job of the tape is to prevent your weapon shorting out your opponent's lame.

Here's how it works: A circuit which connects through your C line (you weapon) is not supposed to set off any lights. However, suppose you hit your opponent, and the blade bends enough that the blade touches your opponent's lame? If it was not taped, the circuit would go through your blade and your touch would not register.

[keropie]

The V2 point uses a different metal for the barrel to prevent denting on beats and such, at least in theory. I've just acquired some and have only used them about a month or so, so I don't have a strong opinion yet.

[Craig]

And one more question - what is the difference between German Point and V2 German Point?

The V2 points are made with stainless steel to be a little bit stronger than the standard german point, which dings up a good bit. The V2 still doesn't solve the biggest problem with the German points, and that is the screws that stick out and can get mashed down.

Craig

[mrbiggs]

Interesting. My kids use non-insulated foil grips without any additional insulation and have fenced at NACs and no one has ever commented on the grip insulation. I've seen the directors lift up the pad to check the insulation on the wire, but never a comment on the grip.

Yeah, it's an obsolete rule. I've never seen it mentioned outside of a referee clinic. Odds are that it won't matter if he gets an insulated grip, but if he's got a choice, he might as well get one just in case some ref is being pedantic.