Referee exam questions 39 and 42

[lindajdunn]

In going through the practice exam questions, I found two additional questions that I think I have correct but which I'm uncertain about.

39. Fencer X abandons the strip after being penalized twice for the same fault in an earlier bout in the same pool.
a. X receives a yellow card
b. X receives a red card
c. X receives a black card.

This one confuses me because he'd receive a black card after being called three times and failing to report to the strip. I'd having a hard time visualizing anything else. Delaying the bout is a yellow card. Or is the question suggesting that he just walked off the strip after the bout without saluting?

I think it's a black card, but I'd like to know the correct answer so I KNOW whether I'm right or wrong.

42. No other penalties have been given. The fencers come into body contact. Fencer X immediately remises.

a. touch for x; in foil an saber, YELLOW CARD for the fencer(s) who caused the corps a corps
b. as the referee called Halt! For corps a corps, the touch would automatically start after the halt, so no touch is awarded; in foil and saber, YELLOW CARD for the fencer(s) who caused the corps a corps
c. if the Referee was coughing during the action and was unable to say Halt! Before the remise started, touch for Fecer X, because the action started before Halt! In foil and saber, yellow car for the fencer(s) who caused a corps a corps.

I'm fairly certain that it's C because no halt has been called in that situation. OTOH, I wonder how the referee has managed to detect the remise while he was coughing.

Obviously, I've been studying this too long and I'm starting to read too much into these answers.

Thanks in advance for any guidance offered.

[Mr Epee]

39. The wording is unclear, but probably A

42. B - body contact stops the action regardless

[jdoiv]

to Mr. E. He hit it on the nose.

39. is to make sure you understand that group 1 penalties are for the bout only. Leaving the strip without permission is a group 1 penalty, so yellow card.

42. is for you to understand that a c2c ends the action and not the ref saying halt. This is important. The action or infraction will stop the bout, not the ref. You could let them run into each other, remise like crazy till a light goes off, watch the one who thinks he got the point do a little victory dance, then call halt and throw the whole thing out as the c2c stopped everything. Make sure you card the offender in foil/saber and let the b1tchng begin. But you as the ref, made the right call, just slow to do it. It's the fencers responsibility to know that c2c ends the action.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

39. Fencer X abandons the strip after being penalized twice for the same fault in an earlier bout in the same pool.
a. X receives a yellow card
b. X receives a red card
c. X receives a black card.

I agree with Mr. Epee. The wording is unclear. I'd say (A), too.

I'm guessing that they're actually trying to say that the fencer left the strip to avoid a touch (t.28). The point of this question is probably that he was penalized twice for the fault in an earlier bout in the same pool. Penalties do not carry over from bout to bout, so we're back to a yellow card.

But that's just a guess. I don't think that they're actually talking about a fencer who does not report to strip. If this question is on your exam, ask the examiner whether "abandons the strip" means "crosses the lateral boundaries to avoid a touch." You could then ask whether that fencer has any other penalties in the current pool bout. At this point, the examiner may just tell you the correct answer since you clearly know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

42. No other penalties have been given. The fencers come into body contact. Fencer X immediately remises.

a. touch for x; in foil an saber, YELLOW CARD for the fencer(s) who caused the corps a corps
b. as the referee called Halt! For corps a corps, the touch would automatically start after the halt, so no touch is awarded; in foil and saber, YELLOW CARD for the fencer(s) who caused the corps a corps
c. if the Referee was coughing during the action and was unable to say Halt! Before the remise started, touch for Fecer X, because the action started before Halt! In foil and saber, yellow car for the fencer(s) who caused a corps a corps.

I'm fairly certain that it's C because no halt has been called in that situation. OTOH, I wonder how the referee has managed to detect the remise while he was coughing.

Whether the referee called the halt or not, the halt happened at the corps-a-corps. Otherwise, you'd have the silly situation of referees trying to race the the fencers to say "halt" before the remise started. That's not how it works.

The referee observes the action. He sees corps-a-corps. He calls "halt" as soon as he can. Everything that happens after the corps-a-corps is after the halt...even if he actually enunciated "halt" later. If the fencers argue, "I started the remise before you called halt," the referee just says, "I called halt for the corps-a-corps. Your remise was after. En guarde."

See Starting and Stopping the Bout in the FOC's Handbook for Referees. It has a very good explanation of these issues.

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

Obviously, I've been studying this too long and I'm starting to read too much into these answers.

I agree.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

to Mr. E. He hit it on the nose.

39. is to make sure you understand that group 1 penalties are for the bout only. Leaving the strip without permission is a group 1 penalty, so yellow card.

Ah, okay. t.18 (3). That makes much more sense than leaving the strip to avoid a touch.

The answer is definitely (A).

[lindajdunn]

Thank you both. I understand this now.

I went through the practice exam this morning and missed ten questions (including these two) on the general exam. I'm getting there. Even better, I'm gaining understanding about the whys behind the rules and the questions.

[keith]

I don't know, abandon indicates they left for good.

In which case black card.

Who writes these things? They are truly awful as multiple choice questions.

Are they literal translations from the original hungarian....

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by keith

I don't know, abandon indicates they left for good.

In which case black card.

Who writes these things? They are truly awful as multiple choice questions.

Are they literal translations from the original hungarian....

my favorite question (and my printed out and marked up version is underneath my research for a number theory project, some laundry, and a few math notebooks right now, so i shan't find it right now, since i'm unwilling to check the stupid website) is the the one where the possible answers are a, b, or d. there is no c.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

the possible answers are a, b, or d. there is no c.

"Rule six: There is NO rule six."

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by tbryan

"Rule six: There is NO rule six."

"I am not the fencer you want to give that red card to."

"............ you are not the fencer I want to give......... wait, where was i?"


I think that might be an appropriate time for your opponent to request the bout committee.

Jedi Mind Tricks are probably a cardable offense, and one hopes the BC is less suceptible to them.....

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by keith

I don't know, abandon indicates they left for good.

In which case black card.

read the entire question. The fencer was carded twice previously for the same offence earlier in the pool. Abandon doesn't necessarily mean for good. If he had abandoned it twice in a previous bout, then he must have come back, or he wouldn't be in this bout to begin with. I think this is a case of the fencer unhooking and going off to get something. Could be he forgot his spare weapon, or got thirsty and went to the water fountain, or needed to drop some friends off at the lake. Only thing is, he's not suppossed to do this during a bout and he's suppossed to ask permission.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by keith

Who writes these things? They are truly awful as multiple choice questions.....

George K... wrote it.

It makes more sense if you imagine his voice while reading.

Particularly regarding "incidental corp-a-corp".

[chiz]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

39. Fencer X abandons the strip after being penalized twice for the same fault in an earlier bout in the same pool.
a. X receives a yellow card
b. X receives a red card
c. X receives a black card.

This is leaving the srip without permission, Group 1. Fencer X gets a red card, one minute later he gets another and etc till the end of the bout. No black card, that would screw up the pools.

See t.18 Then go to t.114, t.116 and t.120

chiz

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by chiz

This is leaving the srip without permission, Group 1. Fencer X gets a red card, one minute later he gets another and etc till the end of the bout. No black card, that would screw up the pools.

See t.18 Then go to t.114, t.116 and t.120

chiz

Really? First offence in a pool bout of a group one penalty is a yellow card I thought. At least that's what it shows on the penalty chart in the rule book. Penalties stay with you for the bout, not the pool. And yes you can recieve a black card during pools, even if it screws up the pools. See Group 2 and 3 penalty chart for examples. You are correct in the rule, just not in the penalty.

[KD5MDK]

Why would he receive a red card? There's no indication he's suffered a previous group 1 penalty IN THIS BOUT.

Granted, if he unhooked from the strip and went to a water fountain or whatever delay of bout penalties would start flying in addition to the leaving without permission, maybe a "failure to salute after bout was over" if that pushes him over the edge... it really is an unacceptable situation.

[peet]

Originally Posted by chiz

This is leaving the srip without permission, Group 1. Fencer X gets a red card, one minute later he gets another and etc till the end of the bout.

Issue #1: Group 1 is yellow card, not red.

Issue #2: If you want to progress from "leaving the strip without permission" to "Not present when called..." There are no red cards for that. You just make three calls at one minute intervals, and if they're still not present they're out.

However, I believe the offense here is "leaving the strip without permission" not "Not present when called...". "Not present" is for the beginning of the bout/match/pool.

jdoiv is right (IMHO); this question is just to make sure you know that group 1 penalties last only for the bout.
-p

[keith]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

read the entire question.

I did. I am not saying that one or other interpretation is right merely that they are both supported.

Now it is certainly ungainly to read 'twice for the same offence' as pertaining to say, covering, but you could. Of course it is equally ungainly to read 'abandoning' as leaving the strip to avoid the touch, or leaving the piste at the end of the bout refusing to salute/shake hands etc.

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by keith

I did. I am not saying that one or other interpretation is right merely that they are both supported.

Now it is certainly ungainly to read 'twice for the same offence' as pertaining to say, covering, but you could. Of course it is equally ungainly to read 'abandoning' as leaving the strip to avoid the touch, or leaving the piste at the end of the bout refusing to salute/shake hands etc.

I think I see what you mean. So it should really read: Fencer X abandons the strip after being penalized twice for the abondoning the strip in an earlier bout in the same pool.

It still doesn't change what the question is asking. Which is, do penalties carry over in a pool. Though, it does leave one to wonder if the fencer is coming back. So I see your point, but I don't think that is what is intended.

[chiz]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

I think I see what you mean. So it should really read: Fencer X abandons the strip after being penalized twice for the abondoning the strip in an earlier bout in the same pool.

No, X has received 2 penalities for something, could be any penality, at least 1 yellow card and 1 red card, it could be 2 red cards.

Originally Posted by jdoiv

It still doesn't change what the question is asking. Which is, do penalties carry over in a pool.

Group 1 no
Group 2 no
Group 3 yes

But the same penality can be given in each pool bout, ie having only 1 bodycord or only one weapon, yellow card at the beginning of each bool bout or etc.

Originally Posted by jdoiv

Though, it does leave one to wonder if the fencer is coming back. So I see your point, but I don't think that is what is intended.

Look again at t.18.3. Group 1 penality, after the second penility, not necessarily the same penility, X receives a red card for abandoning the strip, X gets another red card every minute after the first until the end of the bout.

chiz

[KD5MDK]

No, X has received 2 penalities for something, could be any penality, at least 1 yellow card and 1 red card, it could be 2 red cards.

X have received 2 penalties IN A DIFFERENT BOUT. Thus, unless they were Group 3, they did not carry over to this one and he has a clean slate.

Yellow Card.