Fencing RULES! Despite bad calls...

[leapinlizard]

Hey Folks!

Great to be here - and greetings from Santa Rosa, California (1 hour north of San Francisco).

I LOVE fencing. As a novice fencer, I can tell that I will keep fencing for years.

I just got back from my first competition and I did very well, despite several questionable calls from corner judges and the officials themselves. At least the calls were questionable according to the people that witnessed one particular bad-call ridden bout. I am disappointed with my standings - but very pleased with my fencing. I finished in the middle of the pack and placed in the top 10 in the pools so I know *I* fenced well.

One very strange thing happened at the end of my last individual bout. My opponent won the match 10-9 (after several reversals-of-opinion by befuddled corner judges) and then walked off the strip. I waited, at attention, ready to salute... but my opponent never returned to salute or shake hands. Instead, her team and even the official surrounded her to congratulate her. I had to hunt her down to shake her hand. According to witnesses and the other officials I asked about the situation told me that I should either have been awarded the win, or the last point should have been thrown out with my opponent being given a Black Card. I won that match in my opinion and in the opinion of most of the people that saw the bout.

Are bad calls common? How do you deal with them?

I did learn that one needs to fence for the official. That is odd to me, but I 'get it' now.

Fence ON!

- LL -

[SFfencer]

I'm assuming this was the UC Davis tournament.
and I'm also assuming that you are Jason Seeber.

Yes, bad calls are common.
especially in my experience in dry foil,
first you have the referee(director) who make mistakes in electric foil,
plus, you have four more side judges who make mistakes aswell, depending on their point of view (i.e. was the point on target, did the blade bend enough, etc.).



by the way, to gloat, I got silver in Epee.

[JasminaJ]

I hold with a widely held opinion that over time the bad calls against you, and in your favor sort of even out. You will find yourself being given points when you know you didn't deserve it-as it was a bad call in your favor.
In the end-it just evens out. As you become more experienced, you will have better directors- very experienced directors. Even they make bad calls sometimes. Stay grounded, and keep fencing because you enjoy it.
When a bad call upsets you, try to blow it off- in whatever manner you like, then get back into the game. This is a sport of manners, and good sportsmanship behaviour is much appreciated. And Welcome!!

[leapinlizard]

Originally Posted by SFfencer

I'm assuming this was the UC Davis tournament.
and I'm also assuming that you are Jason Seeber.

Yes, bad calls are common.
especially in my experience in dry foil,
first you have the referee(director) who make mistakes in electric foil,
plus, you have four more side judges who make mistakes aswell, depending on their point of view (i.e. was the point on target, did the blade bend enough, etc.).



by the way, to gloat, I got silver in Epee.

Hey Sandor,

How did you know it was me?

Congratulations on your SILVER! Way to go!!

What really go to me in my competition (and others I saw) was the way the director would help to change the minds of the side judges. It was more than a simple matter or replaying the actions - officials would actually say things like, "are you SURE that's what you saw?" and "didn't you see that X happened?". These suggestions actually got downward-turned and upward-turned thumbs to reverse their direction!

Alas.

I had a GREAT time, regardless.

- LL -

[leapinlizard]

Originally Posted by JasminaJ

I hold with a widely held opinion that over time the bad calls against you, and in your favor sort of even out. You will find yourself being given points when you know you didn't deserve it-as it was a bad call in your favor.
In the end-it just evens out.

I gave back two touches during the course of the competition... And, the corner judges from my team were completely honest. I applaud them and all other attentive and fair judges.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

- LL -

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by leapinlizard

Hey Folks!

Welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by leapinlizard

I just got back from my first competition and I did very well, despite several questionable calls from corner judges and the officials themselves....One very strange thing happened at the end of my last individual bout. My opponent won the match 10-9 (after several reversals-of-opinion by befuddled corner judges) and then walked off the strip. I waited, at attention, ready to salute... but my opponent never returned to salute or shake hands. Instead, her team and even the official surrounded her to congratulate her. I had to hunt her down to shake her hand. According to witnesses and the other officials I asked about the situation told me that I should either have been awarded the win, or the last point should have been thrown out with my opponent being given a Black Card. I won that match in my opinion and in the opinion of most of the people that saw the bout.

Are bad calls common? How do you deal with them?

Ew. I dislike fencing dry. I didn't see the event, so I can't really comment on whether the refereeing and judging was truly bad or not. You'll have to deal with some bad calls from time to time even from the best referees. You'll learn over time which events in your area have good referees and which do not. You'll learn to recognize referees who you think call well and referees who you think miss or reverse actions.

Really, the referee shouldn't have to guide the judges at all, but perhaps the referee just felt that the judges were doing such a bad job that they were trying to guide them a bit. (For example, referee calls "Attack, parry, riposte, remise. Did the attack arrive?" Referee knows that the parry was in time. At best the remise arrived. Judge answers "yes." "Did the attack arrive before or after the blade contact? Note that the fencer on the right has two actions, an attack and a remise." *sigh*) I've never refereed dry outside of little club bouts, but inexperienced side judges are really the bane of both a good referee and the fencer. They miss touches that land. They cannot distinguish on versus off target. They don't pay attention to the reconstruction of the action and give their answers for the wrong action.

There is a lot of advice elsewhere on this site about dealing with officials. Use the "search this forum" function in the Fencing Discussion forum.

As far as winning your last bout, perhaps you didn't understand what others were telling you. The two options you gave amount to the same thing. If your opponent gets a black card, you win. But maybe that's not what you meant.

Anyway, here's what should have happened.

Your opponent wins. She forgets to salute (being so excited to win) and starts to leave the strip to talk to teammates. Here, the referee should stop her and ask her to salute and shake the opponent's hand. She immediately returns and salutes and shakes. You're done. She wins. You can see Muriel Zagunis do exactly this after she won the gold at the Olympics in Athens. She leaves the strip before saluting.

If she does wander beyond the referee's immediate recall, he should go get her, throw out the last touch, and reset the score as though that touch didn't happen. You both get to refence the last touch. She does not get a black card for doing this. At this point, you might win. She might win. Like I said, it's as though the last touch didn't happen.

The only way she could get a black card is by refusing to salute and shake hands or by vanishing so completely that the referee cannot find her.

So, if the referee had done his job correctly, you probably would have gotten a salute and shake after the fencer returned to strip or (at best) a chance to refence the last touch. So, maybe you would have won the match. And maybe so many calls were reversed that you should have won. But the forgotten salute thing wouldn't really give you the win.

Regards.

[leapinlizard]

Originally Posted by tbryan

But the forgotten salute thing wouldn't really give you the win.

Thank you for the welcome and for the very detailed reply.

I guess that what I meant to say was that, in my heart, the win was mine. Primarily due to the bad calls and not at all due to my opponent leaving the strip.

Peace,

- LL -

[Go? Fencing?]

Originally Posted by leapinlizard

How did you know it was me?

Wow, not even two days on the forum and you've already been outed.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by leapinlizard

Thank you for the welcome and for the very detailed reply.

Instead of thanking me, you could always "Add to tbryan's Reputation."

Originally Posted by leapinlizard

I guess that what I meant to say was that, in my heart, the win was mine. Primarily due to the bad calls and not at all due to my opponent leaving the strip.

That's fine. All I was saying was that there are rules, and it's good to know them. There are many instances where the other witnesses don't really know the rules any better than you do, and you may leave with an incorrect idea of what "should have" happened. That's why it's useful to have fencing.net where you can ask about the rules and find out how things would be done at events outside your region.

I'm not sure what you mean by the victory "in your heart." If I'm at an event, and the refereeing is at least average, the victory is either mine or not. We all learn to expect occasional flipped calls. It's frustrating to lose a bout by a couple of touches and realize that one call was flipped (for a two point margin), but that's fencing. Those who can't stand that aspect of the game learn to love epee.

On the other hand, I have been at events where the refereeing is so bad that winning and losing is no longer really relevant. I end up trying to make one light touches and get through the day without getting too rattled by random calls from the referee. It's almost like situational bouting. (I'm only allowed to score if I control the other fencer's blade and don't get hit.) At those events, I don't even think in terms of victory or placing. I just focus on trying to make sure that the day isn't a complete waste of my time.

Welcome to fencing. I hope that you stick with it for many years to come.

[SFfencer]

Originally Posted by leapinlizard

How did you know it was me?

Originally Posted by leapinlizard

greetings from Santa Rosa, California
...
As a novice fencer
...
I finished in the middle of the pack and placed in the top 10 in the pools
...
end of my last individual bout. My opponent won the match 10-9
...
she

I just looked in the results for someone from SRJC, who fenced novice foil, finished in the top 10 in the pools, and lost 9-10 against a girl in DEs.


In other stuff, the NCIFL has somewhat relaxed rules from the USFA, for example: advanced foil - no yellow cards for not having an extra weapon or body cord at the strip, same for advanced epee, plus for epee if a screw was missing, you would get "2 minutes" or within a timely manner to fix it.

I'm not quite sure if they do give black cards or annul the last touch for not saluting-shaking hands, but especially for novice foil, they want these events to be less intimidating as possible.

[leapinlizard]

I'll tell you, I am SO glad that I had that particular bout! It was filled with intrigue, excitement and even some befuddlement. What an experience.

I have found myself talking this bout over with friends and family many times since the event - and I feel that I have become a better fencer overall. Not just a better competitor.

Thanks for all of the replies here as well. Your opinions and comments have really helped.

Fence ON!

- Jason -

[leapinlizard]

By the way, if you want to see pictures of SRJC fencers, check out our in-progress website at:

http://www.srjcfencingclub.org

I am the guy in white (just kidding) with the black ankle brace.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by tbryan

Instead of thanking me, you could always "Add to tbryan's Reputation."

Wouldn't do anything if the person giving the reputation has less than 10 posts.

[RebelFencer]

Just curious...why isn't anyone in any of those pictures wearing knickers?

[leapinlizard]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Just curious...why isn't anyone in any of those pictures wearing knickers?

The NCICFL does not require knickers. Many of the folks you see in those pictures are novice fencers that have been fencing for less than 6 months. Also, since these same spirited fencers are from a community college team, many borrow school equipment and the school does not provide knickers.

[RebelFencer]

...and the NCICFL is? (google doesn't show anything)

[leapinlizard]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

...and the NCICFL is? (google doesn't show anything)

Ooops. Too many C's.

It the NCIFL - The Northern California Intercollegiate Fencing League. Read about it here:

http://nadi.calpoly.edu/~fencing/icfencer/

[sjpfencer220]

Well, about the refs and bad calls, they are e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e! You just have to deal with them annd if you are at a tournament and have an inconsistent ref, ask for side judges, who might or might not do anything. In a smaller tournament, you can ask someone to watch the ref, and though it is technically illegal, ask not to have a certain ref again (it has worked acouple times). If there is a bed call, feel free to question it, but arguing won't do anything. Also, don't question every call because that just makes them get mad at u. If you have a bed but consistent ref, there is really not much you can do except adapt to the way they call. Most importantly, don't let a ref's call get to you, it messes u up big time. How do I now all of my supreme knowlege of refs? Let's just say I have a lot of experience. There are good refs though, and they might mess up a call, but it is usually good to stay on their good side.

[keropie]

I will say that most of the time, if your league does not enforce the full set of USFA rules (knickers, for instance, or under arm protectors (maybe they're required? who knows...), etc., that your officiating pool is usually not very good. Now, there may well be exceptions, and you may have some excellent officials, but if I were to attend such a competition, I wouldn't expect much of anything in the quality of officials.

FWIW

[Mr.Ewing]

I look forward to our next bout be it regulation or just us i am now hook line and sinker to the sport