Question on Qualifying path for Div II Epee at Summer Nationals

[indigoscot]

I have a question about the above topic. My gf fenced in the Div II Women's Epee tournament for the GA Division. There were 14 fencers, so according to the USFA table, this means only the top 4 would qualify. My gf finished 5th. However, one of the top 4 finishers has Cadet points and should be at least 13 as she participated in a senior event (the aforementioned Div II Epee Women's Divisional Event). Should my gf then be qualified as one of the top 4 was already pre-qualified? I have listed the USFA qualifying path for Div II below:

DIVISION II
Fencers must have a classification in the weapon of “C”, “D”, “E” or Unclassified at the time of the
qualifying competition AND meet age requirements as above AND –
• Place in the top 25% of the current season’s Division Qualifying competition (see Chapter
2 .7.2 for detailed chart) OR
• Qualify for current season’s Division I-A National Championships OR
• Qualify for the current season’s Under-19 National Championships in that weapon OR
• Qualify for the current season’s Under-16 National Championships in that weapon OR
• Placed in the top 4 at the previous season’s Division III National Championships

Thanks in advance for your help!
g

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by indigoscot

I have a question about the above topic. My gf fenced in the Div II Women's Epee tournament for the GA Division. There were 14 fencers, so according to the USFA table, this means only the top 4 would qualify. My gf finished 5th. However, one of the top 4 finishers has Cadet points and should be at least 13 as she participated in a senior event (the aforementioned Div II Epee Women's Divisional Event). Should my gf then be qualified as one of the top 4 was already pre-qualified? I have listed the USFA qualifying path for Div II below:

DIVISION II
Fencers must have a classification in the weapon of “C”, “D”, “E” or Unclassified at the time of the
qualifying competition AND meet age requirements as above AND –
• Place in the top 25% of the current season’s Division Qualifying competition (see Chapter
2 .7.2 for detailed chart) OR
• Qualify for current season’s Division I-A National Championships OR
• Qualify for the current season’s Under-19 National Championships in that weapon OR
• Qualify for the current season’s Under-16 National Championships in that weapon OR
• Placed in the top 4 at the previous season’s Division III National Championships

Thanks in advance for your help!
g

Your girlfriend doesn't get to fence div II nats.

Thats what she gets for losing.

[indigoscot]

D+F+P=Hadouken!,

I don't know if you're trying to be funny or just plain rude. However, I did some more digging around myself, and found this on the USFA documents webpage (http://www.usfencing.org/do/filePreview?id=2074):

In determining the number of qualifiers, the number of competitors is the total number of fencers who competed in the qualifying competition who are eligible to fence in the Championships. Once the number of qualifiers is determined, those who have already qualified to the Championships in that event (athletes determined to be automatic qualifiers) are skipped in determining those who have become qualifiers in that competition. For example, if there are 20 competitors in the qualifying competition, of which four have already qualified for that particular championships event, those four are skipped in determining the five qualifiers from that competition. Example: If the ones who have already qualified are 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 7th, then the qualifiers are those who have placed 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th and 9th.

Therefore, by my reckoning, my gf DOES qualify for Div II Women's Epee at the Summer National tournament. You can refer to my other post for details but basically top 4 qualified, one of the top 4 was already an "automatic qualifier", therefore 5th place qualifies.

My mum always said, if you can't be civil, keep your tongue in your head.

Best regards,
g

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I am rude. Its lovely.

Maybe I was wrong about the qualifying thing.

You owe me some marbles if you're wrong though.

[Ordway]

indigoscot, YES, your gf should qualify. Auto-qualifiers do not take up qualifying spots, but instead are skipped over and the spot goes to the next person below.

Last year I was in exactly the same situation (only for Div II WS). I placed fourth in the qualifier, with three slots available for Div II. One of the top 3 was an auto-qual into a junior event, so that meant that she didn't take up a slot, and I got it. And I did go to Nationals and compete in that event.

Edited to add: I suggest contacting the appropriate person in your division, and probably also contacting the National office, ASAP to make sure that she is correctly listed as qualifying.

[DJ Apostrophe]

If someone has cadet points, they should be considered an 'automatic' at a div II/III qualifier (along with other people who are already qualified by some other means) ... so yes 14 *.25 = 3.5 which gets rounded up to four... so the top four eligible people not already qualified, should qualify for Div II.

Example: http://www.neusfa.org/results/05-06/...040106MSOF.htm

Results from our Div II/III qualifier in Men's Sabre, the winner (Jacob Pet) was already qualified... He is tied for 48th on the Cadet points list...

With 25 people fencing in the event, there are 6.25 (7) qualifiers for DivII. As you can see, 8th place (Kyle Fernandes) qualifies for Division II. There is then a ripple effect, as Fernandes is not taking a Div III qualifying spot Chris Gill ends up swiping the last one, as those spots get bumped down by one as well.

Let me know if you still have any questions.
-w

[keropie]

So the net answer is yes, and if DFP had any marbles, he'd owe them to you...

[jjefferies]

Just got back from an all day (10:30AM-9:30PM) qualifying event. The same situation occurred in both men's and women's events. In both sets we had to have fencers fence off for 5th-XXth places (not possible to use the usual placement based on pool indicators). One woman lost her first DE and then got called back three times I believe to continue fencing off places. End result is that at (I believe) nineth position she was qualified to fence in Div III epee. Tomorrow she finds out if she can qualify in foil, her main weapon. With two events she feels that it's worth while to travel to Atlanta. One salle mate of mine got called back to fence off to the 13th position. And that was in an event where there were only 5 qualifying positions. Sadly he didn't qualify.

Bottom line is that at a qualifying event YOU DO NOT LEAVE until the fat lady sings or the officials say it's all over with. You can be called back for another chance at qualifying.

Regarding your girlfriend, suggest you/she contact the Division chairman or Division secretary who should be able to make the final confirmation.

[sleepyweasle]

Because they like to fence. And to help increase the number of qualifiers (the more people who fence at a competition, the more qualifiers).

[yeoldearmourer]

At the time my daughter was 16 and all ready to quailfer to fence Div11 women foil and wasn't going to fence in that quailfer until she over heard one lady said it wasn't fair that she didn't have to fence to quailfer for div11 Wf. Adelia enter just to prove a point. She beat the women in the DE 15 to 6 just prove that she could have made though that event. Adelia had to fence against her mother for the gold. Mom beat her on time 11 to 7 on time. They threat me with the idea of directed that I left real quick.

[indigoscot]

Thanks to everyone who responded. My gf has emailed the Division and hopefully they have already realised that she'll be the 4th qualifier from that event.

g

[KD5MDK]

I had to go back and verify that Tim was talking about D2 WF, as I want wondering how Loomi would make a sabre bout go to time.

[yeoldearmourer]

At the time Adelia was fencing all 3 weapons she was 16 and haven't made up her mind on which weapon.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

In both sets we had to have fencers fence off for 5th-XXth places (not possible to use the usual placement based on pool indicators).

It absolutely IS possible (and allowable) to use pool placement to separate 5th-8th (or 9th-16th, 17th-32nd, etc.). These positions are NOT tied. You must fence off a tie for 3rd if that's the final qualifying slot. If you have an absolute tie elsewhere (same V%, +/-, AND TS) AND it's the last qualifying slot, you must fence that off. Otherwise there is absolutely no requirement to fence out for place.

-B

[indigoscot]

My gf received a reply from the Division today and apparently wires are crossed or the usfa sent them incorrect information and they are telling her she is NOT qualified for Div II WE. <sigh> It's not the first time this has happened with our division. Hopefully we can get things cleared up without having to escalate above the Division level.

g

[yeoldearmourer]

The paths are clearly laid out on the UFSA website in the Alt Hand book I beleive. In forms and Doucements it state that if a person is already quif they dont count. Look for Dividsonal and Summer nationals information in the forms and Doc section

[DJ Apostrophe]

Originally Posted by indigoscot

My gf received a reply from the Division today and apparently wires are crossed or the usfa sent them incorrect information and they are telling her she is NOT qualified for Div II WE. <sigh> It's not the first time this has happened with our division. Hopefully we can get things cleared up without having to escalate above the Division level.

g

Don't be afraid to go over their head... email the national office... they are there to guide the divisions, and when a mistake is made, their word carries much more weight to those in the division than yours does... and unless the division-folk are true ego maniacs... then they shouldn't really care if you "go over their head"

-w

[indigoscot]

Thankfully after pointing out the Cadet points pdf on the usfa.org website, the Division finally conceded that my gf is correct. They are marking her down as the 4th qualifier on the paperwork being sent to the usfa.

Thanks for all the support!!

g