Final Decision: 2008 Olympic Fencing Events

[Timacheff]

Today in Korea, prior to the opening of the 2006 Junior and Cadet World Championships in Taebaek City, the FIE and delegates from world fencing federations finalized decisions for the 2008 Olympics:

Women's team epee and men's team foil will not be part of the Olympic Games.

I'm not an expert on this matter, but it's my understanding that for Beijing there is an IOC stipulation that there be "gender parity," meaning that, unlike the 2004 Olympics, there can not be two women's (or two men's, for that matter) events removed.

A number of other issues were presented and/or discussed, as well, including locations for junior and senior championships through 2011.

[Pauli]

Was there a reason communicated for this decision?
Cheers
Pauli

[KD5MDK]

That one event of each gender must be removed, to make room for the events which have not been in the most recent olympics, and that WET and MFT have both been in the past two Olympics, unlike some of the others.

[Timacheff]

Also ... specifically, the men's team foil event was voted on by the general assembly; the decision/recommendation on the women's event was presented to the assembly and approved. So it was not just a decision dictated to the masses, but rather a vote/decision in which everyone was represented and able to participate.

Everyone would rather that all events be at the Olympics. It's not an easy decision, no matter what -- there's someone in each event that stands to lose out if it gets eliminated.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Timacheff

Also ... specifically, the men's team foil event was voted on by the general assembly; the decision/recommendation on the women's event was presented to the assembly and approved. So it was not just a decision dictated to the masses, but rather a vote/decision in which everyone was represented and able to participate.

Everyone would rather that all events be at the Olympics. It's not an easy decision, no matter what -- there's someone in each event that stands to lose out if it gets eliminated.

Any details of the vote? Men's Team Foil was just about the strongest team event for China...

[fencingpictures]

Originally Posted by Pauli

Was there a reason communicated for this decision?
Cheers
Pauli

In this audio clip RRoch lays out the reasons why it came down to Men's Team Foil or Sabre.

There may be an update soon here about the vote and decision itself. We'll cross-post here unless Craig or Timacheff cover the follow-up.

[Purple Fencer]

*sigh* Y'know....since they dropped softball, the IOC could always just suck it up and keep ALL of the events in fencing....there's parity for you.

[Timacheff]

I don't have the specific numbers here tonight. What I can tell you is that foil was by far the biggest vote with sabre substantially behind it. Epee had the fewest of all.

China isn't the only one who will take this one poorly ... Germany and Italy, for example, aren't exactly thrilled.

[gladius]

An extract from the article on the FIS website

http://www.schermaonline.com/scherma...rder=0&thold=0

FIE CONGRESS IN KOREA: BEIJING 2008, WOMEN'S TEAM FOIL IN, MEN'S TEAM FOIL OUT - IN MEN'S FOIL ONLY TWO FENCERS PER NATION

"A black day for Italian fencing" this is how Giorgio Scarso, President of the FIS summarized the decisions taken by the FIE Congress today in Taebaek City, South Korea.

Of the 121 current FIE member countries, only 50 were represented by delegates and 35 proxies (many of them given to members of the EC). Here are the results:

1. Women's teams: foil in, saber in, epee out
2. Men's teams: epee in, saber in, foil out
........

Other bad news unfortunately approved by the Congress in Korea: in the individual competitions in Beijing 2008, in women's epee and men's foil (not present in team competitions) each nation will be limited to send only 2 fencers per event...

Excerpt of comments by Giorgio Scarso:

"... Within the FIE we have a regime of false democracy. An example is that some time ago we decided to waive the membership fee for the new emerging federations. This was the right thing to do if one wants to help countries with limited resources but I find it absurd that the large majority of the proxies of these Federations -- not present here in Korea -- be handled by the same members of the FIE EC who put forwards the issue to vote on and then vote in their own favor. The emerging new countries should be helped, not used.

... I intend to denounced this situation to the Italian Olympic Committee (CONI) and to the International Olympic Committee (CIO). I find shameful that within the FIE the consensus [expressed by the final vote] is predetermined [by the manipulation of the proxies].
....

[fencingpictures]

Also -- Apparently France refused to vote, saying they could not participate in such a decision.


crosspost from another thread:
http://www.fencingchannel.tv/feature/2006fie/index.htm

Two new interviews up, one in English with Farber, one in French with Roch and Farber, explaining the outcome of the vote. Farber mentions the IOC has expanded the field of athletes for individual fencing events to 212.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by fencingpictures

Two new interviews up, one in English with Farber, one in French with Roch and Farber, explaining the outcome of the vote.

You know, I'm a sabreur, but there is no explanation that can be adequate to this decision--other than it is really stupid.

MR

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by sabreur

You know, I'm a sabreur, but there is no explanation that can be adequate to this decision--other than it is really stupid.

MR

I don't pretend to understand the IOC dictums. I think that fencing has no added events and medals when new events were added for the Athens Olympics. This means we have more events than allowable by the IOC. I also think, that unless something is done we will continue to have this situation at each olympics. Let us assume that the situation will continue, we need a formula, if it continues, to "cycle" the events. This would not be my first choice, but perhaps under current circumstances is the only "fair" choice. Every individual, every country has it's favorites and strengths in various weapons and events.

My choice to would be to make all of the foil events "golden" and untouchable (no pun intended). For this very reason (selfishness and prejudice) the decision must be taken out of individual's hands and use a formula until the situation is resolved.

[Valerio Versace]

That's really bad for Italy...

[Mr Epee]

Remember that the "official" selection of events was overturned last time.

[heretic]

Roch had control of the vote, and he doesn't like men's foil so this should come as no surprise. Looking ahead, if they rotate, men's saber or epee team will be on the chopping block for 2012. Probably WFT as well..

[kalivor]

Seemed obvious to me that this would be the way it turned out:

Women's epee was in last time, so it's out this time -- WF and WS in.

With women's epee out, that means that men's epee is in, as they'll want to keep an epee team event. So foil or sabre must go.

Given that Roche insists on altering the foil rules every year or two, because he doesn't like the way it looks, and sabre has his "television-oriented" breakthroughs in it (reeless + visor masks), it's no surprise that sabre is in and foil out.

[Craig]

From the People's Daily Online

Beijing Olympic fencing to exclude two team events



The Federation of International Fencing (FIE) has opted to eliminate men's team foil and women's team epee from the Beijing Olympic Games, settling a dispute lasting for half a year.

The decision was announced by the FIE on Saturday after an executive conference held at Taebaek, South Korea, which means that Chinese fencing team will not compete in two of their favorite disciplines.

China's male fencers of foil, runners-up in both Sydney and Athens, had pinned their hopes of taking revenge at the Beijing Games, while the women's epee team were also desperate to rebuild their advantages on home soil.

The men's foil team of China, which had called up retired veterans Wang Haibin, Ye Chong and Dong Zhaozhi back to the national team for the 2004 Games, repeated their sorrowful tour in Sydney as the Hungarian referee Joszef Hidasi wrongly awarded Italy six points in the men's team foil final in Athens where China lost 45-42 to Italy.

Hidasi was later expelled by the FIE from the Olympics.

The decision on which events be included in the Beijing Games should have been made in October 2005, but the world fencing ruling body had to hang it up after the dispute led to a rift among European fencers.

It's not the first time that a furore arose in the FIE while discussing issues of this kind.

Four years ago, the FIE had asked the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to add women's individual and team sabre to the Athens Olympic Games in 2004, but it was rejected by the IOC, which said new events could only be added if others were removed.

The French federation then proposed that the events to be excluded should be decided by drawing lots. That was done, with the men's team foil and women's team sabre events being drawn, but the draw upset athletes from a number of European countries, as well as the IOC.

Finally the women's team foil, which had the lowest number of entries of the team events at the 2001 world championships, came out the one being dropped so that the number of Olympic fencing events will not change.

[Inquartata]

Well, any country whose "favorite disciplines" are foil and epee are suspect anyhow. Let them concentrate on sabre, like a sensible nation!

[dramamine]

Fencingchannel.tv says it's true...

Do you guys feel as though these changes will have an impact on the international strength of the weapon? What are you thoughts on this?

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by dramamine

Fencingchannel.tv says it's true...

Do you guys feel as though these changes will have an impact on the international strength of the weapon? What are you thoughts on this?

I'm not sure that foil adds anything to fencing.

I fenced foil when I was a kid, then I grew up.

So should everyone else.