Are you in favor of a barrier along the US - Mexican border

[Inquartata]

Not to mention the fact that even in agriculture, the industry where they are most heavily employed, immigrants both legal and illegal comprise only 24% of the workforce.

So much for that rationale. AND the "jobs Americans won't do" one as well.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Beeblebrox

Personally, I don't care if illegal's die in their attempt to cross our borders.

don't you think that's a bit harsh??

Originally Posted by Beeblebrox

Why do we allow millions of uneducated non english speaking unskilled people to come to this country illegally, but we allow less than 100,000 people with advanced degrees come here legally each year?

and you allow even less foreign nationals who earned their advanced degrees here to stay.. at the same time there is the matter of the H1-B program which is abused by US companies so some professionals do get in.

it goes back to supply and demand. there's no shortage of IT, engineering or any other white collar professionals in the US despite what you might read or hear.

[pigeonmeister]

Interesting.......

Web users to 'patrol' US border

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5040372.stm

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by glowstix

don't you think that's a bit harsh??

Importing the third world means importing third world values. Where the U.S. once had quality craftsmanship, intelligent people, and attention to detail, it now has cheap junky products from China, a mass of self-assured idiots, and entertainment poisoned minds incapable of thinking of anything non-trivial for more than a split-second.

[Phaeton]

Of course, third world values include picking up individuals, putting them in direct risk of injury by going over speedbumps in an open truck, lying to them, and insulting them. Wait, no that wasn't the immigrants driving the car that was an...an...American?

Wish I was surprised.

America, the land founded on Cod, Alcohol and Slavery, is not being harmed by third world values. Since the nation's conception even our most celebrated figures have not had pristine pasts, but such things are painted over by time. Nearly everyone who signed that great document known as the constition had some hand in illegal smugelling of goods past British fleets, and the slave trade, and good old Abe Lincoln wasn't as tollerant as we all thought.

Our education system is our own to manage, and any degradation to it is due to our mismanagement of funds, which were plentiful enough. Education is the foundation of democracy, and the goverment has the power to fix things. IF things don't work, and people are unintelligent it is our fault, not some random person in Chad who makes his living by hunting bush meat. Even if he moves to the United States and becomes a citizen he's going to be part of a small minority of dedicated individuals. If his intent was bad (which it isn't), there's a few of them, and a lot of upstanding Americans to make sure things don't go bad. A democracy means that the people get what they deserve. If you mess up don't go blaming a minority for it, or if you do be tactful and blame somone everyone else does. A herd of bigots is more amusing than one alone, and makes for things more likely to be tried by the hague....

In terms of the entertainment industry. America exports the most entertainment media of any country in the world. More major films and pop culture are sent out of the States than anywhere else. There's a reason why most of the celebrities you are about are American, and for that same reason when you pick up a news paper in any foreign country, there'll probably be a blurb in the entertainment section dedicated to who JLo is marrying this week.

Imigrants do not cause bad craftsmanship. It's in the CEOs in companies who mail out schematics to be assembled. So little is done by hand and is modifiable that craftmanship for many items on the personell level is negligible.

Go ahead and bash China, by the end of this century when they've overtaken Europe and North America as the world's largest power...I'll be there beyond the grave whispering in your ear...I told you so.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Go ahead and bash China, by the end of this century when they've overtaken Europe and North America as the world's largest power...I'll be there beyond the grave whispering in your ear...I told you so.

I got no problem against them sending their women over here. No problem at all. I love Oriental women. I wish the men would just stay in China and the women all come over here. When it comes to love there is nothing like Oriental service.

[umbrella]

Only if it's really beautiful, really beautiful, like a natural resource thing, with streams and creeks, little brooks and stone walls that people can visit like in China, a tourist attraction....

and I'm not kidding. It would only border a few states it's not a big deal. People could pass through it nicely without a big deal as they work out how to make the Visa process more like they have in Europe with people going between different areas.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yes, except there's also been no proof offered that it would actually be necessary to go to those extremes. Convenient, that.

Possibly we could try som things, and then if they fail we could conclude that they won't work. But to throw up our hands and surrender at the very outset seems a bit, I don't know...French?

Hmm... two words:

Maginot. Line.

[Inquartata]

Five words:

Illegal. Immigrants. Don't. Have. Tanks.

[Phaeton]

Three Words:

That's. What. They. Want. You. To. Think.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt

Hmm... two words:

Maginot. Line.

The comparison is inapt in several respects.

1. The Maginot line only covered a part of the French border, the proposed USMex-line should cover the entire land border.
2. The Maginot line was intended to hold out armed soldiers, the proposed USMex-line is intended to hold out (mostly) unarmed peasants.
3. The Maginot line was intended to hold out people coming in great armies, the proposed USMex-line is intended to hold out people coming individually or in small ad-hoc groups.
4. The Maginot line covered lush landscape, the proposed USMex-line is intended to cover mostly arid semidesert/desert.
5. The Maginot line was intended to deal with people where deadly force was the 1st response, the proposed USMex-line is intended to deal with people where deadly force is the last response.

If you instead compare with the East German wall, you notice that the proposed USMex-line is similar in respects #1-3, while dissimilar in #4-5. The Maginot and USMex lines are similar in that they are intended to keep out, not in, as in the DDR example.


If one instead compares with the current walls around the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in Northen Africa, one sees that the proposed USMex line is similar to them in all respects except scale.

Both the DDR and Spanish examples suggest that it is doable to keep unauthorised cross-wall traffic low, given that one pours enough resources into the walls.

The morality of the various walls is an entirely different story, in this post I only concern myself with the feasibility of hindering movement.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Inquartata]

A poem from Benny Hill:

"Why do they build walls around graveyards?
It's silly beyond any doubt.
The people outside don't want to get in
And the people inside can't get out."

[Phaeton]

A Poem From Phaeton:

The reason gaveyards have walls
My friend is all too clear
In the event of a Zombie Uprising
It'll impede their march of fear

[Phoenix]

I think there is too much at stake if we DON'T put up some type of barrier. I am infavor of immigrants and the will to work and make a better life, but I want it done legally. It's not just workers who come across the border, but murderers, rapists, criminals, and just bad people that come undocumented and this is extremely unsafe.
They also don't understand the American way and what we stand for. People who come legally into this country and want to be citizens, have to take classes on what it means to be an American. They have to learn the constitution, bill of rights, the legal system, and all sorts of stuff that we take for granted but are very important.
If we don't have rules and regulation on how people come into this country, then what is the point of them? Why don't we just let anyone in, including terrorists, criminals, sex ringleaders, pedophiles, and all sorts of people from around the world. This is a national security concern and people don't realize that.

[umbrella]

Peter:
I think it's really an economic thing. Most countries have some sort of border thing, either a person drives through a toll-booth or in some way acknowledges that he or she is going into another country. The problem with us doing this, is that the North American Continent was not originally land that belonged to North American decendants.

That is the crux of the problem....So, traditionally what we did, after about 1920 or 1930, when that generation realized what had happed due to Western Expansionism was decide to open all the ports, letting everyone in to form a sort of "Melting Pot". What finally dawned on many people though during the Civil Rights movement was that there is no real way to compensate people who were enslaved and so North American decendants had to take a back seat as well as back off in nearly every instance including criminal and antisocial trends. This is because those people [in the past called the "white power structure] the power players realized what was underneath the surface were people who needed to vent their spleen.

Enter: Malcolm X "Soul on Ice" on the heels of James Baldwin, who fled to Paris to realize his true nature and expand as an artist. Malcolm was purely politcal: his groove was to encourage African Amerian women to have many children and create a Majority in the United States to carry the vote; he was able to perceive that around that time, the Irish Catholic population was slowing down it's rate of reproduction. Hence a voting block that would bring about the kinds of changes that would not be possible otherwise. At the same time; women tried to bring about Equal Rights through an Amendment but it was squashed as it was too closely associated with Lesbianism. Which was unfortunate as many straight women supported the bill.

Over the next 30 years the immigration population grew, some of it good and some not so great as it brought in drugs; but who are we to scream? My very own ancestors came in to New York Harbor through Ellis Island from Ireland and Italy, my Irish Grandmother wed a Jewish bootlegger and lived in Chicago during the Depression, he died in a gun battle and she married #2 a plain ordinary Roofer.

The Wall is not a good sign; but if it was BEAUTIFUL, maybe it could be tolerated.

As a budding artist, I feel that it could have been based on the Rio Grande River, expanding on it's theme as a Natural Barrier, which was the original idea many years ago. Lining the entire area with Pine Trees, maybe Trees that are indigidious of Mexico and North Amerca, as well as other Nations would be an interesting way of just "showing" the natural barriers that do exist between countries. Then an Orderly, Normal way of conducting the flow of people could be established rather than watching people die jammed in vans.

[dcmdale]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060706/cm_csm/ydillin_1

Here's a concept (discussed here before): Illegal immigration won’t exist on any large scale without a corresponding culture of illegal employment. If people were as up-in-arms about nailing employers as they are about nailing illegal immigrants, we probably wouldn’t have a problem with either.

[Five Rings]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Importing the third world means importing third world values. Where the U.S. once had quality craftsmanship, intelligent people, and attention to detail, it now has cheap junky products from China, a mass of self-assured idiots, and entertainment poisoned minds incapable of thinking of anything non-trivial for more than a split-second.

Two divergent threads here - one relates to values, the other relates to quality of life. I don't want to address the first for now, or you will have me going on for the next few hours, and my boss will probably fire by a** for being on the net during work. But as to the second, ReverseLunge should pay a visit to China - the "cheap junky products" happen to be the cheap junky products Americans choose to buy! (From WalMart! Would you buy a Blue Light Special fencing mask?) If you go over there, you will see products that are equal or better in quality than what you get over here, if you are willing to pay the price. Don't knock the product if the masses are asking to pay less and willing to sacrifice quality. As to the self-assured idiots and entertainment poisoned minds, I don't know what to say other than that the poisonous entertainment seems to be pouring out of Hollywood more than anywhere else.

I do get your point (and the point of others on this thread) that the importation of low cost labor vs. skilled labor is detrimental to the long term economic health of the US. Many other countries have opted for the reverse (Canada?) where preference is made for skills in immigration. Of course, this came from the preference that the US gives for "family" (i.e., its easier to get someone in if there is already a family member in the US) over "qualifications". Hey - that's promoting family values.

Recent report that Europe and Japan seeing declining and aging populations. US seeing growing population that is overall younger. Economists see this as key to continued economic growth. Immigration can be the driver and engine for economic growth. Unfortunately, the press and public is focused only on the illegal border crossings without analyzing the bigger picture.

OK, back to work.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

So tax revenue to the government is the supreme end of all policy? It excuses all crimes?

The government of this country is not this country, and illegal immigration is an injury and an insult to this country. That the state manages to extract some revenue from it does nothing to change that.

Well, above all else. No matter what ANYONE tells you. The ONE ideal that actually brought this country into being was the concept of taxation without representation.

Given that in the case on the American Revolution, the crimes treason and rebellion against the crown were excused it seems pretty clear that the precedent has been set to excuse a little border jumping.

Taxation IS the cause and reason for government. No government has ever existed without it. Money as always is the root of everything, except sex, which is the root of money...

[umbrella]

Well, the fence is built so there's little to do about it, except wait. It might be a temporary measure that was considered to be necessary during this war and when it goes away, the fence may change.

I feel a little tense about the fence because it seems to be manned by a Minuteman. And in fact I don't like the so-called Minuteman Movement at all. I feel it's unnecessary.

If the thing was developed into a normal Natural barrier, then people could cross over in a decent way instead of being forced over the borders. It should have been the natural river bed with forest surrounding it; and small stone bridges that only have one lane.

In looking at the fallow land around the area, I felt one thing: Make a nice housing development for those people.