Are you in favor of a barrier along the US - Mexican border

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!


Assuming that a totally effective wall is built, what other consequences - other than a large cost and manpower use - will it have?

Are there any migratory non-human species whose movements would be impeded, or any other natural environment problems?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

Peter,

None that I know of. Well, maybe the biggest unintended consequence is that the price of lettuce will go up.

I lived in Arizona for a while, and in California for a while longer. Some control of the border is needed in a very bad way. Just reducing the amount of (very bad) drivers with no driver's license and no insurance in the border states would be a relief.

Regards,
Feltan

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Are there any migratory non-human species whose movements would be impeded, or any other natural environment problems?

Almost certainly. The Sonoran Desert, for instance, is in both Mexico and the US. Any non-flying species with a range covering areas on both sides of the border would be impeded. As an example, the occasional jaguar does, or did, occasionally make its way up into souther Arizona or New Mexico.

Rivers also cross the border. Some, like the Colorado, are baely a trickle by the time they do so and could probably be permitted to flow through gratings or sluice gates without much interference. How a physical barrier could be erected in the Rio Grande, though, I'm not sure...

[Epee_Pox]

You know, we could just annex Mexico and be done with it.

We have free trade and an open border already, so why not just formalize the situation.

It would be a benefit to Mexico by installing rule of law, a reduced level of corruption (at least to D.C. or New York standards), economic transparency, the power that is US-GAAP, educational opportunity, agricultural efficiency, more jobs, and the safe security that leads to lasting institutions and civilization.

That would, in turn, benefit the greater USA by (after the first decade or so) increasing overall well-being, eliminating the immigration problem, and eliminating the drain on the economy that Mexico-as-it-presently-is is.

Seems like a win-win. Why not?

[Slim]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

You know, we could just annex Mexico and be done with it.

We have free trade and an open border already, so why not just formalize the situation.

It would be a benefit to Mexico by installing rule of law, a reduced level of corruption (at least to D.C. or New York standards), economic transparency, the power that is US-GAAP, educational opportunity, agricultural efficiency, more jobs, and the safe security that leads to lasting institutions and civilization.

That would, in turn, benefit the greater USA by (after the first decade or so) increasing overall well-being, eliminating the immigration problem, and eliminating the drain on the economy that Mexico-as-it-presently-is is.

Seems like a win-win. Why not?

Not a bad idea. Really. And dont forget all that oil.

[bmcfencer]

I say we should all become Zapatistas.

But truly, illegal immigration is worriesome- because these people can't get in legally they sneak in often under extremely dangerous conditions and then live in constant fear of deportation. Unsafe/Unfair working and living conditions... social and physical isolation... sometimes employers refuse to pay, and what can you do? Report them? You're illegal! The government will deport you!

One of my best friends does a lot of stuff with migrant farm worker rights. I didn't eat at Taco Bell for years because of her (though come to think of it, I still don't, even though they've agreed to our demands. Their food gives me indigestion).

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

You know, we could just annex Mexico and be done with it.


Seems like a win-win. Why not?

Two words: East Germany.

Meanwhile, I was talking to an officer from a local municipal PD after the second of the big pro-immigrant protest marches earlier this month. I mentioned to him that I'd seen very few Mexican flags this time in comparison to the first march, and lots of American flags. He said yes, and they'd gotten a large number of reports of American flags stolen from in front of homes and businesses over the previous few days.

Coincidence?

[D.O.A.R.]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

Does anybody think this will make things south of the border 1) better, 2) worse, or 3) a hazzy swirl of purple?

[gojujay]

Originally Posted by D.O.A.R.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

Does anybody think this will make things south of the border 1) better, 2) worse, or 3) a hazzy swirl of purple?

Probably a spike in drug use, tapering off to about the same level as now or less. Feeling only, no documentation and I don't have time at the moment to look up and weed (sorry) through statistics

[Inquartata]

Addendum: Pres. Fox has sent the bill back for reconsideration. No doubt under American pressure.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And I advocate not only deportation for them all but a jail term first...after which they can have a shot at coming back through a widened gate, ie a much expanded set of quotas for immigration and a streamlined application/checking process. That is, once they have paid their debt to the society which they injured by breaking its laws as their first act in the country. ( And " You have to learn English" is not any sort of proper punishment for lawbreaking. )

What we have right now is a narrow gate standing in the middle of the desert, with no wall to either side. So few bother with the gate at all.

How can you be so right (second quoted paragraph) and still come up with such an absurd statement as the first paragraph? What about all the tax dollar that the US happily takes from these migrants whose wages are often illegal in terms of the hourly rates and who would qualify for receiving full refunds.

Will we give them that money back as well after we let them out of the jail we send the to for the crime of paying taxes, working back breaking labor to keep our costs of produce down, will we raise our foreign aid to cover the economic loss of their rettitances to third world countries produces? Not to mention, are we going to pay to build all the prision we need when you plan of jailing illegal imigrant triples the current prison population?

You may want to look into the realities of that plan...

[jeff]

I just saw a headline in the NY Times "Bush Now In Favor Of Some Fencing Along The Mexico Border", which would have been great for the SW divisions, but alas, he was not talking about that type of fencing...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by RoninX

What about all the tax dollar that the US happily takes from these migrants whose wages are often illegal in terms of the hourly rates and who would qualify for receiving full refunds.

So tax revenue to the government is the supreme end of all policy? It excuses all crimes?

The government of this country is not this country, and illegal immigration is an injury and an insult to this country. That the state manages to extract some revenue from it does nothing to change that.

Will we give them that money back as well after we let them out of the jail we send the to for the crime of paying taxes, working back breaking labor to keep our costs of produce down, will we raise our foreign aid to cover the economic loss of their rettitances to third world countries produces?

No, we will not, any more than we "give back" the taxes paid by any other sort of criminal we send to jail, whether the thief, the embezzler, the bookie or the drug dealer.

Not to mention, are we going to pay to build all the prision we need when you plan of jailing illegal imigrant triples the current prison population?

Maybe we can get it from the enormous tax revenues you believe we exract so unfairly from illegal imigrants.

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by jeff

I just saw a headline in the NY Times "Bush Now In Favor Of Some Fencing Along The Mexico Border", which would have been great for the SW divisions, but alas, he was not talking about that type of fencing...

If some political cartoonist is on his toes, I can see a political comic featuring Zorro in the next week or so.

Regards,
Feltan

[ReverseLunge]

There is a much cheaper and more satisfying solution. Something all true Americans should do.

Here it is.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

There is a much cheaper and more satisfying solution. Something all true Americans should do.

Here it is.

thanks for the great video.

We need to build a wall like the one dividing North and South Korea, complete with land mines. It has been successful keeping millions of invaders out for 50 years now. Personally, I don't care if illegal's die in their attempt to cross our borders.

Why do we allow millions of uneducated non english speaking unskilled people to come to this country illegally, but we allow less than 100,000 people with advanced degrees come here legally each year?

[Phaeton]

8th century solution to a 21st century problem. People can get around walls animals can't. If people are resourceful enough to build carboats from cuba, survive walking through miles of desert, and smuggling themselves across on ships I"m pretty sure a wall isn't going to stop anyone except wildlife.

I'd like to see the day when not a single illegal immigrant shows up in the country. Bye-bye california's economy. All the crops die in the fields, produce costs skyrocket. Who's picking all the plants in Cali? Illegal immigrants.

[Inquartata]

Right, so that's why there are no longer any walls in the world: they don't work. Those wacky East Germans spent all that money and stopped no one from escaping. And don't get me started on prisons, those places are sieves!


A wall or fence doesn't have to stop 100% of illegal immigrants to be effective in ameliorating out current problem. I'd settle for stopping 80%, myself. Probably at least 95% can be stopped by simple methods. The rest can be dealt with in other ways. But there's no need to stop using the locks on your front door just because some people can pick them...

[Phaeton]

That's rediculously idealistic. And the immigrants already in the country? How shall we find them. We can't find one 6 '4 Saudi man of ill health, how are we going to find scores of illegal immigrants?

[Inquartata]

We find them the same way we find them now: One at a time or in small groups. Finding them isn't the problem---it's police departments which issue orders to their patrolmen NOT to arrest illegals, because "that's a federal responsibility" or "we have more important things to do"...and it's bureaucrats who can't get their acts together so they just institute "catch and release" policies. It's that no one has really gotten serious about the issue, except the citizenry. And they don't count, apparently.

No one says we have to find and capture all illegals at once. In fact, it would be foolish to try, because it isn't necessary. All that is necessary is to make the cost to those who remain uncaught exceed the benefit of being uncaught. Do that and a lot of them will sneak back across the border the way they came rather than take the newly increased risks of being found out. Those who don't can be gradually swept up and dealt with.

Even then we won't get them all. But getting rid of any substantial portion of them will be a good thing.

Why must it be all or nothing? Why is any solution that is not 100% effective not worth bothering with? What other problems in life do we regard in such a light?

[Bayou Bum]

Originally Posted by