Rasing priority of fencing in students minds.

[larkmaj]

At my college club we suffer from having lower priority over other activities in the minds of the fencers/students. People will come when they have the chance, not come if they have another club event. Some don't even seem to try to schedule things around fencing.

I was wondering if anybody had any ideas in order to raise the priority of fencing in the minds of the fencers so we can get people attending more consistently.

I guess it would help if you understood our club setup. We run two practices a week from 8-10:30. Shortly after 8 our coach runs warmups, after that people are released to suit up and then our coach will usually teach the day's lesson to a particular weapon. Then they go off to fence on our 3 electric strips, it's basically open fencing. The coach gives private lessons during this time and watches the fencing giving pointers and such. People slowly leave and by 9:30 there are only about 3 people remaining on each of 2 weapons (usually the third dies out around this time, commonly epee). We eventually finish up around 10-10:30.

Any suggestions from restructuring the practices to advertising tournaments, attending tournaments, and whatever else would be appreciated.

[BySword]

I fenced in a high school fencing club and people just treat it the same way. people just skips the WEEKLY fencing practice for band and etc. becuz fencing is not viewed as a sport but rather a recreational activity, like movies. so what is the last time you skip school activities or classes for a movie? probably never(well there is a case you skip classes cuz you dont want to go to classes that day, but yea, you know what I am trying to say.)

i think it's important for people to respect fencing and treat fencing more seriously.

[Mr Epee]

Communicate the benefits of participation not just the attributes of the sport.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Yeah Right.

It has to come from within. Having a very competitive club with inspiring fencers helps though.

[eac]

It's determined by the intensity of the club as a whole, which is often determined by the intensity of the coaches. If the coaches are intent on closing out the top 4 at nationals, the attitudes of the students will change to match. If the coaches have one practice a week and were never successful in competition themselves, let alone produce successful fencers, students will not take them seriously. I've noticed that this is true even when the students don't know that competition exists or how it's structured. Each coach exudes a level of commitment, and that's matched by the students.

[achilleus]

It's important to remember that college club fencers have a lot of different demands placed on them, and fencing is competing with a variety of activites for their attention.

It's also important to realize why people at your club are fencing. Are they interested in competition? Are they interested in socializing? Are they Ren Fair Fanatics? Etc...

All that said, structure and entertainment are key.

For example, have the coach/experienced fencers run not just a warm up, but a physical training session geared for fencing.

Instead of free fencing after the lesson, have the coach dictate theme bouts where the students work on what they learned.

Instead of free fencing have a pool, where the winner actually earns something, like a free drink. Or better, split the fencers up into teams or pairs to boost the socializtion aspect.

End every practice by haning out and have a few drinks, perhaps taking the winner of the pool or team out to get said drink...

But don't just let them free fence. You can't make people want to train, but you can make the club fun and interesting to attend beyond just learning how to hit people.

[tbryan]

Each coach exudes a level of commitment, and that's matched by the students.

Not always true. I've seen a committed coach join an existing fencing club. He was ready to turn it into a competitive force, but the majority of the existing members of the club were more interested in hanging out, chatting, fencing a bit, and then going out for beer and pizza. The coach gave up the struggle when he realized that those in control of the club and its finances weren't interested in the kind of club he wanted to create.

Really, you have to have the right people in the club. There are many people who are interested in fencing the same way they're interested in going down to the gym to shoot hoops with friends. They just want to do some activity they enjoy with friends. You may be able to interest some of them in serious competitive fencing, but you may find that it's easier to attract new competitive fencers than it is to turn existing recreational fencers into competitive fencers. If you really think that you have the support structure to create a competitive club (coaching, equipment, a core of dedicated fencers, etc.), then market your club to those people.

Maybe set some long term goals for your club and get people interested in training to meet those goals. See if the school paper will do a piece about how your club is looking for people interested in joining a competitive fencing club team, whether or not they have previous fencing experience. Make sure that your club website is informative, and the information is current. Participate in student activity day (if your school has such a thing) where your club has flyers and people in gear doing lots of noisy bladework from time to time.

Basically, put out the call that you're trying to build a serious competitive team. Make sure that those who are interested can easily find the information about your club, how it works, and what you're trying to accomplish. You may be surprised to find some former fencers suddenly show up in your club saying, "I didn't even know that our school had a fencing club." You'll continue to have people who are just interested in recreational fencing, but with some luck, you'll find enough serious competitors that you'll be able to build a serious team over time. And it may take time. Think in terms of a couple of years, not a couple of months.

[eac]

Yeah, you're right. The coach does have to be in control of the club for that to be true. But if they are, then what I said is generally true. It's probably also the case that the students who aren't prepared to match the set level of commitment leave the club.

[whtouche]

As achilleus said, structure is important. Your fencing club or team or group/organization is the product you are trying to "sell".
Depending on how you go about things, you're going to attract different types of people. For example a club like the one you described, which it seems is very loosely organized in terms of what it asks for from it's members, is going to attract the kindof people you describe. That is apparantly not what you're interested in. Step one is figure out what your goals are. The next step is to compare those goals with your realities, and then work on a plan to make them mesh more acceptably.

Unfortunately, in order to get to where you want to go (assuming you want a more tight-knit team environment that is more competitive) you might have to be willing to accept the possibility of undergoing a rebuilding phase. Moving from the current environment to one which would put more demands on a fencer (not necessarily in terms of more time, but in terms of freedom within the time allotted) may cause some attrition.
But it should also help attract the kindof people that you are interested in being on a team with, and once you have a solid core in place, if you don't already have one that is like minded, then it will swell and start to germinate on it's own. You have to build the foundation based on what type of house you want.

A more specific question would be easier to answer, but let me try to give an example.
If you want your team to be competitive, with all the attributes that go along with that (dedication to the team, to working hard and improving) then you have to change the way practice is structured. Right now it reads as any USFA fencing club would run. People come in, briefly structured warm up, then free fencing and lessons. If you're trying to build a team don't run it like a club. Arrange practice in a way that will accomplish your goals; mandatory footwork and drill work preceeding any open fencing, as well as physical conditioning.
There is a mental/communicative aspect to building a team in the desired image as well, however. When people are joining for the first time and asking what it's about, avoid the urge to try to please everyone. Tell them what it's about, what direction you see it going in, etc.

This is becoming a disjointed series of thoughts on my part, so I'll try to give as concrete an example as I can. I'm the president of the team at UMass. We do not have varsity status, but are very competition-oriented. In addition to this fact, the team is also very much a large social group. We spend alot of time together, alot of people would consider their team mates to be among their best friends. We're very close.

As I mentioned, we're a very competitive club team. You could say that one of the primary goals for the team is competitive results. With this in mind we have a very standard (I wouldn't say rigid) practice structure that we follow. We begin every practice with a warmup, then some conditioning, stretching, some more conditioning exercises (usually pushups or situps or equivelants). We then do footwork as a team. After this we either play fencing games (glove game, etc) or split into squads for drills. After drills we suit up and fence electric for the remainder of the night. People are encouraged to fence dry or drill or do something fencing-related while waiting for an electric strip to be free. The emphasis throughout all of this is efficient use of practice time.

Because the team generally attracts like-minded people, everyone generally gets along very well. Most days after practice a large group go somewhere together to eat. There are frequent parties, etc. This, combined with a few people leftover from each generation working to maintain the familial atmosphere through team-building and social engineering results in a team that I love being a part of. Once you put the structure in place and know that you have people who think the same way and are dedicated to perpetuating it, the environment you want will grow.

[Inquartata]

For the reasons Achilleus notes, it's hard to criticize another individual for not having the same priorities as oneself. At the same time it's frustrating when they don't, because those of us who are self-motivated and burning to fence are balked by the lack of available opponents. This is one of the worst problems I encounter: I show up for practice and sit around for two hours waiting for someone else to show up...because they have "other things to do".

OTOH, I will also note that a club structured as Achilleus advises would actually drive me away, if it were compulsory or cut into the bouting. It might motivate some of the fencers who are presently less keen on practicing, but it might equally well repel those who are ALREADY keen. And who come primarily for the fencing, not the drills, games and group-hugs.

Paradox! Do you try for the pig in the poke, or would you rather hold onto a sure thing?

[foilz]

Think about the fencing pre-neophyte.

Somehow, to them, this fencing thing looks like a cool collegiate activity. It's intellectual, classy, and athletic. That's cool.

Now think how you want to embrace them, draw them in, and infect them with the passion for fencing.

I think it has a lot less to do with physical rigor and learning fencing basics. I think it has a lot more to do with (properly, safely, and carefullly) putting a weapon in their hands, on a strip, and working through "fencing", or a "bout".

Think about the sports you tried.

You wanted to try it!

Forget about the education and training and elucidation and learning and structure and learning elements of all of this. Think about the fun of fencing.

Be safe. Be scrupulously safe and careful. But create in your visitors a physical experience of fencing, and work at that, so they absorb the flavor and feeling and fun of fencing.

They won't know anything. Learning comes later.

They will be ineffective. It doesn't matter.

But if you have made it safe, and worked on some simple routines -- right there on the strip -- you will have put a fire into the hands of young people.

That fire is a weapon, on a strip, facing an opponent, under pressure and scrutiny.

Again, please, prepare in a proper way, and make it safe.

But get people "fencing."

At the end of the event, I think you will know how many of these wonderful young people are going to love fencing -- intuitively -- and become a part of this world.

Then you can go back to zero, refocus and reframe, and start to build the basics, the proper way.

Most golf teachers I know say the same thing: "All I want to do is get a young person to swing a golf club and see a white ball flying through the air. I don't care how that happens. Once it happens I have a student."

Get "fencers" safely on the strip, help them "fence", in slow time, in a safe environment, but with fencing fun, and watch you enrolments zoom.

FWIW.

[Beowulfman6]

For the reasons Achilleus notes, it's hard to criticize another individual for not having the same priorities as oneself. At the same time it's frustrating when they don't, because those of us who are self-motivated and burning to fence are balked by the lack of available opponents. This is one of the worst problems I encounter: I show up for practice and sit around for two hours waiting for someone else to show up...because they have "other things to do".

OTOH, I will also note that a club structured as Achilleus advises would actually drive me away, if it were compulsory or cut into the bouting. It might motivate some of the fencers who are presently less keen on practicing, but it might equally well repel those who are ALREADY keen. And who come primarily for the fencing, not the drills, games and group-hugs.

Paradox! Do you try for the pig in the poke, or would you rather hold onto a sure thing?

I agree. I'm the only competative fencer in my club and I basicaly end up doing tons of footwork drills by myself. The other members compete in our in-house open tounaments, but have no interest in going to tournaments with me or becoming beter fencers. I know they have very different priorities than me, and I have no problem with this; but I just wish I had another serious fencer to train with! It gets a little old having practice be open bouting for 30 minutes to an hour then doing an hour of drills alone.

All I can do is make it as easy as possible for them to go to tournaments with me by offering to carpool and let them crash at my place for a night, but you can't create motivation- it has to come from within (although you can inspire it by example).

[foilz]

Probably got this wrong. I have a bee in my bonnet about inculcating new fencers.

However, you apparently have fencers with low fencing libido. They are passive, lacking commitment.

Obviously, you got the wrong kind of fencers.

My post (above) is about identifying, selecting, and building motivated fencers.

Good luck.

[Beowulfman6]

Think about the fencing pre-neophyte. [...]

Get "fencers" safely on the strip, help them "fence", in slow time, in a safe environment, but with fencing fun, and watch you enrolments zoom.

FWIW.

I agree. I've spend a lot of time thinking of ways to get new people interested in the sport. My problem is that I go to a school with under 600 students- I just don't have much to work with.

[foilz]

I agree. I've spend a lot of time thinking of ways to get new people interested in the sport. My problem is that I go to a school with under 600 students- I just don't have much to work with.

All it takes is two of you, and a coach. Maybe you are the coach as well as one of the participants. Well, now you have a fencing club.

Now you can talk to other students.

You can be ultra-careful, and introduce other students to what you do. It may just take longer.

Fencing is a virus. In some, it will take. Others, it will ignore.

Everyone on this forum will help you make it happen at Brevard (which I must agree is a great place!).

Cheers.

[Beowulfman6]

All it takes is two of you, and a coach. Maybe you are the coach as well as one of the participants. Well, now you have a fencing club.

Now you can talk to other students.

You can be ultra-careful, and introduce other students to what you do. It may just take longer.

Fencing is a virus. In some, it will take. Others, it will ignore.

Everyone on this forum will help you make it happen at Brevard (which I must agree is a great place!).

Cheers.

Not to thread jack or anything, but we actualy have 5-6 people (one from Athletic Club Northeast) and a coach. We also host open tounaments that are lots of fun if maybe not that big. The problem for me is that the others don't have the same goals/motivation as I do.

[larkmaj]

First of all, I thank everybody for their quick and well thought advice. A lot of what was said I have already been thinking of but it's great to hear other people give the advice and their reasons behind it.

Ben, as you may or may not have quessed I am actually quite familiar with the way in which your club is organized, runs practices, bonds as a team, although not experiencing it first hand. I have every intention of visiting a practice or two of yours I've just had a few issues in getting over there.

Foilz, I like your idea. I may even have the perfect opportunity to implement it as a freshmen orientation event. This is something I will need to discuss with the coach. I was planning on having a conversation with our coach about where the club is going, I think he will be receptive as he has expressed interest in making the team more competition oriented.

Again, thank you for your responses and please continue to give them.

[foilz]

Not to thread jack or anything, but we actualy have 5-6 people (one from Athletic Club Northeast) and a coach. We also host open tounaments that are lots of fun if maybe not that big. The problem for me is that the others don't have the same goals/motivation as I do.

That's great.

You are motivated. You will be successful.

People are always attracted to energy and success. Your activity will motivate everyone, including your members.

Hang in there. Keep moving forward. Be the energy that attracts.

Cheers.

[achilleus]

OTOH, I will also note that a club structured as Achilleus advises would actually drive me away, if it were compulsory or cut into the bouting. It might motivate some of the fencers who are presently less keen on practicing, but it might equally well repel those who are ALREADY keen. And who come primarily for the fencing, not the drills, games and group-hugs.

Yup. I totally agree. it sucks being the only competitive person in a non competitive setting. I would also hate Foilz's idea of just being given a weapon with learning coming later. However, collegiate clubs (as opposed to NCAA teams) are a rather unique situation and require a different approach than a stand alone club.

Paradox! Do you try for the pig in the poke, or would you rather hold onto a sure thing?

Both. You just got to get enough members and money to start building up. Starting off as a recreational/social club allows the club to start building a large membership base, and hopefully, plenty of revenue to pay for the coach and equipment. And, the more people you draw in, the more likely you'll get a couple more competitive members. Then the competitive members work amongst themselves at a different pace, meet at the gym during non-fencing hours to work out, etc...

But, you gotta have some rec fencers to fill in the blanks...

[eac]

I agree. I'm the only competative fencer in my club and I basicaly end up doing tons of footwork drills by myself. The other members compete in our in-house open tounaments, but have no interest in going to tournaments with me or becoming beter fencers. I know they have very different priorities than me, and I have no problem with this; but I just wish I had another serious fencer to train with! It gets a little old having practice be open bouting for 30 minutes to an hour then doing an hour of drills alone.

Can you switch to a more competitive club?