Theorise: Why are we in Afghanistan?

[jBirch]

Basic question: Why is the US in Afghanistan?
Followup: Why is Canada there too?

[Epee_Pox]

You need to go back and study your geography. The USA and Canada are in North America.

[lochinvar]

The US is there because:

1) We had to kick somebody's ass after 9/11, and the Taliban was a logical choice--they were harboring Bin Laden.

2) Oil. Afghanistan is one of several likely routes for oil and gas pipelines. Why do you think the Russians wanted it?

3) We're planning to open "Pashtun World", a new Disney theme park. Only instead of an artificial mountain, we plan to use one of the Hindu Kush. And since we couldn't bring the mountain to Mohammed, so to speak,...

As for why Canada is there, it's because we bought them back in the 90's when we foisted the NAFTA on them. Now they must do as we say! MUu-wa-hahaha!

[lochinvar]

Sorry, I forgot one.

Military bases strategically placed to safeguard our national interets (read: Oil).

[rcmatthews]

US:
1) having a presence close to Russia and China
2) possible to stop opium production, but I think I may be getting a little too idealistic
3) war boosts approval ratings and the economy
4) keeping Russia and China from dominating the Afghani oil market

Canada:
Because the US is there

[jBirch]

What Afghani Oil market?

James.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

Sorry, I forgot one.

Military bases strategically placed to safeguard our national interets (read: Oil).

Called the TAP (Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline, or something like that). To get oil from Turkmenistan to the deepwater ports in Pakistan (the closest other ports are in Iran...).

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by jBirch

What Afghani Oil market?

James.

Well, I meant more preventing the Chinese from getting involved in the Middle Eastern oil trade by having a base of operations. I didn't phrase it very well. But, this one:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1984459.stm

[D'Art]

I think the simple answer is that the US are there because Bush forgot to withdraw them before invading Iraq.

Canada are there because the British withdrew some troops and the US generals (NOT Bush - he still doesn't know) needed some one else in there to fend off accusations that it was only the US who wanted a war (unsuccessfully, it has to be said).

[Larrison]

Why are we in Afghanistan?

1) A terrorist organization that was based in the country killed several thousand of our (the United States) citizens. When asked to hand over the leaders of that organization the country's government refused.

So we broke the government of that country and went hunting for the terrorist leaders and members of their organization.

2) The last time we broke the country (when the Russians had taken over) we didn't give any attention to how the country reorganized and got going again. That mistake gave us the Taliban. We're at least trying to not make that mistake again, and are paying attention to how the country gets going again.

3) Not all the terrorists have been successful hunted down, nor have all their leaders been killed and captured. Almost all the information has them still operating in, or near the borders of Afghanistan. A few remaining members of the prior pro-terrorist government of Afghanistan still carry out terrorist actions in the area. So we're keeping a few folks around to continue the hunt.

Why is Canada there? Ask why NATO is there, and the treaty obligations of NATO countries to each other. I will note that 24 Canadians were killed in 9/11 and that successful (and unsuccessful) terrorist attacks on the US and other countries have been staged from Canada.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Larrison

2) The last time we broke the country (when the Russians had taken over) we didn't give any attention to how the country reorganized and got going again. That mistake gave us the Taliban. We're at least trying to not make that mistake again, and are paying attention to how the country gets going again.

Actually, the common understanding has been that the US supported the Taliban until the 9/11 fracas.

and that terrorist attacks on the US have been staged from or staged through Canada.

This is factually incorrect...and an irritating myth.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Apr8.html

James.

[Inquartata]

It's where the Stargate is.

[rcmatthews]

Originally Posted by Larrison

Why is Canada there? Ask why NATO is there, and the treaty obligations of NATO countries to each other. I will note that 24 Canadians were killed in 9/11 and that terrorist attacks on the US have been staged from or staged through Canada.

I think that NATO obligations are only for defense. There is no obligation to supporte a country in an offensive opertaion, but i am not sure.

[VELISARIOS]

Oil, and the control of the area.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by Larrison

1) A terrorist organization that was based in the country killed several thousand of our (the United States) citizens. When asked to hand over the leaders of that organization the country's government refused.

So we broke the government of that country and went hunting for the terrorist leaders and members of their organization.

In other words, they sucker-punched us, so we kicked their ass. HOO-rah!

2) The last time we broke the country (when the Russians had taken over) we didn't give any attention to how the country reorganized and got going again. That mistake gave us the Taliban. We're at least trying to not make that mistake again, and are paying attention to how the country gets going again.(bold added)

Um, who's the "we" you speak of, Kemosabe? As far as I know, the Afghan insurgents broke the Russians--just like the Vietnamese insurgents broke us in southeast Asia. We may have given them money and/or arms, but I don't think that entitles us to say "we" broke the country.

Oh, yeah...you forgot to mention "oil".

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Oil, and the control of the area.

What Oil?

James.

[rcmatthews]

look at the links I posted.

[Larrison]

[quote=jBirch]This is factually incorrect...and an irritating myth.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Apr8.html

/QUOTE]

Not true... specific case in point is Ahmed Ressam, who was a resident in Montreal. Resam had traveled from Canada to Pakistan and Afghanistan in 1998 and had undergone training in camps funded and operated by Osama bin Laden.

In Dec 1999, he and 2 other persons, particularly Abdelmajid Dahoumane (a resident of Vancouver) and Mokhtar Haouari (also a resident of Montreal) bought and built multiple bombs to be used in a plot to attack the Los Angeles International Airport. (At the time it was thought he was going to attack New Years celbrations in Seattle, since he was to meet other members of his cell in Seattle.)

Fortunately, on 14 Dec 1999, Resam was arrested in Port Angeles, Washington, having just arrived from Victoria BC, when he attracted the suspicions of US Customs Agents. He had over 100 pounds of explosive hidden in the trunk of the car (in the wheelwell).

It should be noted that in April 1999, Ressam had come to the attention of French anti-terrorist police since he had been associated with Algerian terrorists in Afghanistan. French investigating magistrate Judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere sent a formal letter to Canadian justice authorities asking for search warrants to be executed in Montreal in his investigation of Algerian terrorists, including Ahmed Ressam, who was specifically named. It took Canada over six months to process the request, at which point Ressam had left Montreal for Vancouver to work on making bombs.

Other examples include:

June 23, 1985 - Air India flight 182 leaving Montreal's Mirabel International Airport is blown up mid-flight to London.

April 5, 1992 - The Iranian embassy in Ottawa is stormed by members of MEK, an Iraq-supported leftist group.

Please note that in my original comment I did not say that terrorists who perpetrated 9/11 came through Canada.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Larrison

Not true... specific case in point is Ahmed Ressam, who was a resident in Montreal. Resam had traveled from Canada to Pakistan and Afghanistan in 1998 and had undergone training in camps funded and operated by Osama bin Laden.

In Dec 1999, he and 2 other persons, particularly Abdelmajid Dahoumane (a resident of Vancouver) and Mokhtar Haouari (also a resident of Montreal) bought and built multiple bombs to be used in a plot to attack the Los Angeles International Airport. (At the time it was thought he was going to attack New Years celbrations in Seattle, since he was to meet other members of his cell in Seattle.)

Fortunately, on 14 Dec 1999, Resam was arrested in Port Angeles, Washington, having just arrived from Victoria BC, when he attracted the suspicions of US Customs Agents. He had over 100 pounds of explosive hidden in the trunk of the car (in the wheelwell).

Other examples include:

June 23, 1985 - Air India flight 182 leaving Montreal's Mirabel International Airport is blown up mid-flight to London.

April 5, 1992 - The Iranian embassy in Ottawa is stormed by members of MEK, an Iraq-supported leftist group.

Note: I did not say that terrorists who perpetrated 9/11 came through Canada.

The only one of relevence is the first one. The other two are internal Canadian terrorism problems (do a search on FLQ if you want some really scary terrorist stuff in Canada) that have no bearing on the claim "terrorist attacks on the US".

The millenium plot was successfully stopped by a joint effort between CSIS, the RCMP and the FBI so it's invalid to suggest that any terrorists have actually made it from Canada into the US and perpetrated any sort of successful terrorist attack. Nor is it valid to suggest that Canada is any sort of a "haven" for terrorists.

What is valid to say, is that in 1999 one attempted terrorism attack on the US from Canada was thwarted by vigalent US Customs officials.

So the assertion "and that terrorist attacks on the US have been staged from or staged through Canada" should be modified to be "and that an attempted terrorist attack on the US was staged from Canada."

James.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by jBirch

[ ... ]
So the assertion "and that terrorist attacks on the US have been staged from or staged through Canada" should be modified to be "and that an attempted terrorist attack on the US was staged from Canada."

James.

I did go back and modify my posting.. I also extended the comment from beyond the US to include other countries.

I'll also note that the US does not have a spotless record in this either..

As a later note, you stated that the first two cases "were internal Canadian terrorism problems". Hmm.. if the terrrorists attack a plane belonging to another country, and targeted at another nation's citizens -- is it really only an "internal" matter? Similarly, if someone attacks another countries embassy, then technically it is an attack on another country's soverign territory. In both