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Old 04-18-2006, 02:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dr. Pfleschbach
Inquartata makes several valid points that I generally agree with regarding how change takes place in societies. I wonder, though, if anything less than an occupation like that of Germany and Japan can succeed in Afghanistan. I would think that the reason we were able to impose our will on those countries was that we effectively obliterated all opposition. There was no alternative for the Germans and Japanese to turn to.
It wasn't so much that the opposition was obliterated, but rather that the populace and fighters were just plain tired of war. The will of both the populace and the leadership to continue the conflict just didn't exist, though the capacity to carry on the war was still very active.

In Afghanistan and Iraq, on the other hand, the duration of the conflict was so short that the population barely had time to get their heads around the fact that there was a war going on before someone declared it to be over and installed themselves as the victor (much like the German invasion into France, actually). The fighters and leadership in both those places are still defiant and the populace isn't tired the way the Japanese and Germans were after WWII. With the military activity much more low key in Afghanistan and Iraq (and the power differential between the civvies and the military), the occupiers have every opportunity to piss off the locals with minor irritants and fuel any sort of insurgency/underground/resistence. This door-to-door crap the coalition likes to pursue is just making their job that much worse.

At the end of the day, it is the will of the people that determines the will of their fighters. In Afghanistan there is an opportunity to build a nation as the people are starting to believe that the occupation isn't an occupation at all (though that feeling is still very much in its infancy). In Iraq (tangentially) not so.

James.
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Old 04-18-2006, 03:13 PM   #62
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It wasn't so much that the opposition was obliterated, but rather that the populace and fighters were just plain tired of war. The will of both the populace and the leadership to continue the conflict just didn't exist, though the capacity to carry on the war was still very active.
This is a good point you make. However, we did have approximately 350,000 troops in Japan at the peak of the occupation. I don't know how many allied troops were stationed in Germany right after the defeat, but I believe there are still about 80,000 there today. That's 4 times as many troops as we currently have in Afghanistan. Granted there are huge differences between these countries and the nature of conventional warfare has changed drastically in the last 60 years, still I think that manpower has to be taken into consideration.
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Old 04-18-2006, 05:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Pfleschbach
This is a good point you make. However, we did have approximately 350,000 troops in Japan at the peak of the occupation. I don't know how many allied troops were stationed in Germany right after the defeat, but I believe there are still about 80,000 there today. That's 4 times as many troops as we currently have in Afghanistan. Granted there are huge differences between these countries and the nature of conventional warfare has changed drastically in the last 60 years, still I think that manpower has to be taken into consideration.
Yes...and no. It has to be the RIGHT manpower and that manpower has to be prepared to fight an ongoing low level conflict with absolute discipline for the next 25 years or so.

AND that assumes that something can be found in Afghanistan that makes it able to stand on its own two feet economically. Right now, opium and freedom fighters are the two chief exports.

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Old 04-19-2006, 03:36 AM   #64
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Meh. Decriminalize drug use and reduce penalties for drug trafficking in the US. But that's for another thread, I guess.
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Old 04-19-2006, 11:23 AM   #65
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Meh. Decriminalize drug use and reduce penalties for drug trafficking in the US. But that's for another thread, I guess.
That would be an excellent thread! You should get it rolling!
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Old 04-19-2006, 03:39 PM   #66
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Why are we anywhere? I think it started off with the War with Germany; that we got involved with that conflict is because millions of people were being killed because of their religious beliefs and even though our military consisted of German decent people, they had to go and take a good look at what happed to their countrymen and their land. We just don't notice how many people here are from the Middle east and how they want to protect their homelands based on their knowledge of their former homelands. Those people often act as advisors to our government, which is why it is so difficult to work through these things....
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Old 04-20-2006, 05:00 AM   #67
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Uh, the US didn't join WWII because of the Holocaust. Pretty much no one here knew about it.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:16 AM   #68
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[quote=Inquartata]

Quote:
What's needed in Afghanistan now, I think, is to shore up and protect the new government and to extend and normalize democratic institutions and thinking, to give both time to mature and for a generation of Afghans to grow up benefiting from them. I'm not sure that'd be more easily done with 300,000 troops than 30,000...or 3,000.
What is needed in Afghanistan depends on what are expectations of a succesful outcome is. Are we looking to increase the standard of living, levels of literacy, increase energy supply, religious freedom, political openess, press freedom? Or is it to remove the power of warlords, destroy all terrorists, end drug production and increase the authority of the police force? In tackling some of these issues there are cultural and physical impediments that are unaffected by troop numbers. Other issues, like drug control, are more dependent on affective police/army numbers and economic incentives.

If you ask me the answer lies in greater troop numbers to allow a 'space' for NGO's to operate in areas that the government, presently, has no authority. A withdrawal will not be politicaly necessary for three reasons. Firstly the relatively sustainable number of casualities. Secondly the fact that 90% of Europes heroin comes from Afghanistan. Thirdly the lesser levels of purely sectarian violence (a problem the West has decided it is powerless to stop)

Thus the West has to totaly overhaul the Afghan economy. This really depends on- The Afghan Investment and Support Agency (AISA) who will hold an Afghanistan International Investment Conference and Exhibition May 9 to 12 in Kabul.

The conference will actively highlight and promote three sectors that are key to the economic development of Afghanistan:

1.agribusiness and agriprocessing
2. infrastructure, construction and construction materials
3. energy and mining.

So what is needed is that capitalist fix all- investment, educational advancement and the security space to lure and sustain this. It seems that there is more opportunity for investment in Afghanistan (than Iraq) and a less divided authority in charge of its deployment. This is good news in my opinion. The other good news is the greater success in creating both, political institutions, a political concensus and a multi ethnic police force. Inflation is low and curreny reform has been fairly succesful as well.

The key to success wil be creating an investment climate- something that these people are desparetely trying to do.
http://www.export.gov/afghanistan/

If Afghanistan can get into the World Bank in the next few years then we know that progress has been very good. Before that, however, enough investment must have increased to the point that allows a viable alternative to poppy production and the security services must be in a position to take on the War Lords. It is long years of conflict that has destoryed other agricultul sectors, severed industries from their markets and seen skilled workers flee. It is only natural that 5 years of relative stabilty will reverse this. Industries like the carpet trade moved into neighbouring countries- there is no reason why they will not return. Better transport is the other major investment requirement for growth. Access to finance is the other major catalyst and I think that progress can be made here. At the start investment will probably need to be protected by guarantees from (probably) the World Bank.

Thus in my opinion- there is a five year plan in Afghanistan and don't expect to see much of a withdrawal before then. Yet this is a five year plan that is, unlike Iraq, a viable strategy for a tangibly succesful outcome.

Once this is in place then serious investment can begin on Caspian Oil pipes- however that might carry inherent problems of its own.
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