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jdoiv · 04-03-2006, 01:27 PM

Ok, so c2c with Jostling is a cardable offence in epee. But what is considered Jostling? The definition of jostling is basically pushing. So, if fencer A runs into fencer B in an epee bout and the force of the collision causes B to move position (by moving his feet to keep his balance), would that be jostling? Or does B need to hit the ground?

I was taught the former, but am not seeing it called this way. Basically, I don't see it getting called at all, when I think it should be.

Oh, and I did run a search on jostling, but I didn't see anyone with any kind of real definition on this one. Anyone from the FOC reading this?

RITFencing · 04-03-2006, 01:30 PM

If one fencer loses balance or staggers back, some jostling occurred. Note that it is not necessarily the fault of the fencer still on their feet; it is the fault of the fencer who caused the contact. If little Timmy foilist barrels into Justin Meehan and then lands on his ass, it is not Justin's fault; Timmy would get the card.

oso97 · 04-03-2006, 01:39 PM

Jostling is a tricky little beast to pin down - purposefully. Any definition of jostling is going to be incomplete, because, epeeists are always going to try to find some new way to gain advantage and the referee needs to be able to have the ability to penalize this when it occurs.

That being said, that right there is a large part of the definition (by by no means complete) - a corps-a-corps to gain an advantage. That advantage could be of the positional kind, as in pushing off an opponent to gain space for a riposte or remise. It could be the psychological kind, as in hip-checking an opponent on a pass.

And if you think sabre coaches are vociferous, try giving a card for jostling to a high level epeeist when his coach is present. I've seen elite level coaches go on and on and on about how any body contact short of blood should be allowed, and no, it didn't matter if his fencer was trying to gain a positional advantage or use the corps-a-corps to stop the action to prevent his opponent from scoring (a different penalty in and of itself). And then they'll go on to argue in a most condescending tone that since the referee in question was never a "world class" epeeist then they will never understand about how such actions are an "integral part of the game of epee."

Best response I heard to that was, "No, I may not have been a world class epeeist, but I did play four years of high school football, and I know a body check when I see one!"

Edit: Jostling does not have to be deliberate, either. An accidental body check is just as erronous as a purposeful one. As a certain prominant member of the FOC says, "I look forward to the day when officials get flack from the coaches for not giving the card when a penalty occurs, instead of for giving a proper card when it does."

jessicasimpson · 04-03-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RITFencing

If little Timmy foilist barrels into Justin Meehan and then lands on his ass, it is not Justin's fault; Timmy would get the card.

It is always Meehan's fault,(in the eyes of the ref) he has prob accepted this by now

darius · 04-03-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

It is always Meehan's fault,(in the eyes of the ref) he has prob accepted this by now

Given the average amount of time spent in conversation in Justin's foil bouts, I highly doubt it.

darius

KD5MDK · 04-03-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oso97

As a certain prominant member of the FOC says, "I look forward to the day when officials get flack from the coaches for not giving the card when a penalty occurs, instead of for giving a proper card when it does."

I saw that happen at the Gold Blade, as a matter of fact. But then, it was sabre.

fencerbill · 04-03-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RITFencing

If one fencer loses balance or staggers back, some jostling occurred. Note that it is not necessarily the fault of the fencer still on their feet; it is the fault of the fencer who caused the contact. If little Timmy foilist barrels into Justin Meehan and then lands on his ass, it is not Justin's fault; Timmy would get the card.

If an elephant ran into Justin Meehan, it would be the elephant on its ass. I am so glad he never seems to get mad.

Dr. Pfleschbach · 04-03-2006, 05:18 PM

I took a referee clinic that was given by an very highly regarded Olympic level director and according to him jostling is "difficult to define but you know it when you see it". As he said that he raised his forearms into a blocking position that football linemen use. How's that for clear cut rules? Apparently it's a judgement call similar to unneccessary roughness in football. That's epee for you.

larkmaj · 04-03-2006, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerbill

If an elephant ran into Justin Meehan, it would be the elephant on its ass. I am so glad he never seems to get mad.

There are some stories in my club of him and a few fencers. Apparently he blames one of my clubmates for making his brother quit epee.
Also, my coach says there was one time he ran into Justin during an epee bout, obvious jostle, Jusing pushed him over causing him to land on his back. Then Justin stood over him and stabbed him in the chest.

fencerbill · 04-03-2006, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larkmaj

There are some stories in my club of him and a few fencers. Apparently he blames one of my clubmates for making his brother quit epee.
Also, my coach says there was one time he ran into Justin during an epee bout, obvious jostle, Jusing pushed him over causing him to land on his back. Then Justin stood over him and stabbed him in the chest.

So your coach admits he jostled Justin. Must have been something if Justin was jostled. And then your coach complains that Justin pushed him????

larkmaj · 04-03-2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerbill

So your coach admits he jostled Justin. Must have been something if Justin was jostled. And then your coach complains that Justin pushed him????

Well, I'm not sure how well I recollected the story, but my coach took it in good humor (he wasn't complaining). I can just imagine that happening though, scary.

Durando · 04-03-2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Pfleschbach

I took a referee clinic that was given by an very highly regarded Olympic level director and according to him jostling is "difficult to define but you know it when you see it". As he said that he raised his forearms into a blocking position that football linemen use. How's that for clear cut rules? Apparently it's a judgement call similar to unneccessary roughness in football. That's epee for you.

I find it varies quite alot depending on where you are. Back in the day in South Texas you would literally have to push someone down and the kick them before anyone called it. Here in France they jump on you pretty quickly. Counterattacking into a flèche resulting in contact will often get the counterattacker carded.

jdoiv · 04-03-2006, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durando

I find it varies quite alot depending on where you are. Back in the day in South Texas you would literally have to push someone down and the kick them before anyone called it. Here in France they jump on you pretty quickly. Counterattacking into a flèche resulting in contact will often get the counterattacker carded.

I saw a similar action recently. Fencer A fleches, Fencer B initially retreats, then B stops and moves into Fencer A's line. B gets hit by Fencer A and lands solidly on his back. Ref did not give c2c. Though, I would have given it to Fencer B, since he moved into A's path causing the c2c to happen. Sort of scary to watch.

notalent · 04-03-2006, 06:16 PM

Greetings Durando,
I had an epeest complain about a jostling card this weekend. A fleches B trys to pass on the right side. B prime parries misses the repost and left his arm out and clothslines A. He felt that since A fleched he couldn't have caused jostling. I told him that he prevented A from safely passing, thus he got the red card.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durando

I find it varies quite alot depending on where you are. Back in the day in South Texas you would literally have to push someone down and the kick them before anyone called it. Here in France they jump on you pretty quickly. Counterattacking into a flèche resulting in contact will often get the counterattacker carded.

KD5MDK · 04-03-2006, 07:00 PM

Was that a Group 1 Jostling for a 2nd offense, or a Group 2 for dangerous action?

notalent · 04-03-2006, 09:04 PM

Greetings KD5MDK,
Group 2 he did clothesline his opp. he had a pair of weapon failures already, but he would have gotten a red no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Was that a Group 1 Jostling for a 2nd offense, or a Group 2 for dangerous action?

BOliver · 04-03-2006, 09:25 PM

Jostling occurs when body contact causes loss of balance. This can be simply having to take a step back. It might mean landing on one's ass. If an impact between two fencers results in one losing balance (and having to adjust to regain that balance) then jostling has occured. Who caused, however, is sometimes hard to determine.

If fencer A crashes into a stationary Fencer J, and rebounds (probably due to greater specific gravity on Fencer J's part) Fencer A is still guilty of jostling (even if fencer J is unmoved.) However, if Fencer J leans, ever so slightly, into the impact, then it's a card for Fencer J....

Bill Oliver

KD5MDK · 04-03-2006, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notalent

Greetings KD5MDK,
Group 2 he did clothesline his opp. he had a pair of weapon failures already, but he would have gotten a red no matter what.

Ah. Wasn't sure how inadvertent the contact was.

jdoiv · 04-03-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOliver

Jostling occurs when body contact causes loss of balance. This can be simply having to take a step back. It might mean landing on one's ass. If an impact between two fencers results in one losing balance (and having to adjust to regain that balance) then jostling has occured. Who caused, however, is sometimes hard to determine.

If fencer A crashes into a stationary Fencer J, and rebounds (probably due to greater specific gravity on Fencer J's part) Fencer A is still guilty of jostling (even if fencer J is unmoved.) However, if Fencer J leans, ever so slightly, into the impact, then it's a card for Fencer J....

Bill Oliver

That was the exact answer I was looking for. Now, if only I can find a way to save this post onto my PDA, I can carry it with me should someone give me grief on what constitutes jostling. Of course, the pda might not fit in my back pocket very well while I'm fencing. And what happens to it when I'm the one landing on my butt?

TrainingDummy · 04-03-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdoiv

I saw a similar action recently. Fencer A fleches, Fencer B initially retreats, then B stops and moves into Fencer A's line. B gets hit by Fencer A and lands solidly on his back. Ref did not give c2c. Though, I would have given it to Fencer B, since he moved into A's path causing the c2c to happen. Sort of scary to watch.

I think Mr. Oliver's post would make this one incorrect. I know my coach will yell at us (in a friendly way) if he comes at us and we recoil when he wants us to stand our ground. "You are a fencer!" Ha. Anyway, it would seem to me that Fencer A has an obligation to be in control during a fleche and able to stop at any moment to not cause jostling.