Divisionals f&ck ups

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Situation:
At the div 2/3 qualifier for x weapon at the divisional qualifiers (A C and under tournament), the organizer allows y fencer (A newly minted b06) to fence in it. Does this make the results from the tournament invalid for qualifying for Summer nationals?

[DJ Apostrophe]

sounds like a job for...

info@usfencing.org

hopefully you'll get a reply...

-w

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Does this make the results from the tournament invalid for qualifying for Summer nationals?

Only if someone complains to the National Office.

[jessicasimpson]

USFA was asked, since the fencer registered for the tournament before getting the B, they are still allowed to fence.

[fencergal33]

This is true.....if you register for Divisionals, and then attain your B rating, you are still allowed to fence in it. Same thing happened last year in NC.

It's the same situation if you register for a Div. III NAC, and then get your C between the registration and the actual event. You are still allowed to fence. This happened to a friend of mine right before Miami.

[fencerX]

The Nevada division runs its division qualifier events for summer nationals allowing As and Bs to fence in the same event used for determining Div II/III qualiiers. For example, one of last year's Nevada's "Div II/III" qualifiers was supposedly an A1 event that qualified one fencer for both Div III/II and got him his B.

http://web0.greatbasin.net/~nevdiv/2...vresults05.htm

Apparently having Tanya Brown in your division means you don't have to follow the same rules that other divisions must follow.

[JEC]

However, the reading of the rules is that:

the eligibility to compete is determined at time of entry deadline for competition

Section 2.5 of the athlete handbook, but section 2.11.3 reads:

Originally Posted by USFA Athlete Handbook

If a fencer meets the classification requirement when his or her application is processed by the
USFA, and subsequently earns a higher classification, the fencer retains eligibility for that tournament.

[hello?]

How about for plain, old local non-qualfying events? Can you fence in them after your rating changes to a higher-than-allowed rating?.....Also, what about a Div-2/3 qualifier where someone who is really a D fenced as a C because of the wrong-card-fiasco (mentioned in another thread here) after the Reno Div 2/3....The fencer KNEW it was a mistake (I asked her afterwards), but still used the wrongly-issued card....I found it kind of disturbing....Her seeding could have potentially affected the results of the whole tournament!

[mlr2fence]

Originally Posted by fencerX

The Nevada division runs its division qualifier events for summer nationals allowing As and Bs to fence in the same event used for determining Div II/III qualiiers. For example, one of last year's Nevada's "Div II/III" qualifiers was supposedly an A1 event that qualified one fencer for both Div III/II and got him his B.

http://web0.greatbasin.net/~nevdiv/2...vresults05.htm

Apparently having Tanya Brown in your division means you don't have to follow the same rules that other divisions must follow.

Thats totally unfair to the fencers who are trying to qualify for Div II/III!! Take the case of fencer A who meets one of those As/Bs in the first DE and gets knocked out. If they had fenced someone else --who was actually eligible ratings wise to fence in Div 3 at S Nats--they might have won that DE. Instead they are knocked out and lose the chance to become Div 3 eligible by someone who can't even fence in that event! Its possible they could have actually won the event if they had not be knocked out by an 'ineligible' fencer. Sure, they take the ineligible fencers out of the final placing in determining eligiblilty but this doesn't help those fencers that they eliminated in the DEs. And this doesn't even take into account how pool results can be skewed!! I can't believe that they think this inherent unfairness is "OK".

[Craig]

If they did poorly enough in pools to match up in the first DE round with one of those As/Bs then I would doubt they would pull out enough DE wins to qualify. Until a few years ago, this is how we did all national qualifying events.

Craig

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

Thats totally unfair to the fencers who are trying to qualify for Div II/III!! Take the case of fencer A who meets one of those As/Bs in the first DE and gets knocked out. If they had fenced someone else --who was actually eligible ratings wise to fence in Div 3 at S Nats--they might have won that DE. Instead they are knocked out and lose the chance to become Div 3 eligible by someone who can't even fence in that event! Its possible they could have actually won the event if they had not be knocked out by an 'ineligible' fencer. Sure, they take the ineligible fencers out of the final placing in determining eligiblilty but this doesn't help those fencers that they eliminated in the DEs. And this doesn't even take into account how pool results can be skewed!! I can't believe that they think this inherent unfairness is "OK".

[mlr2fence]

You're assuming that it is the lower rated fencer that did poorly in the pools. What if its the A/B that had a 'bad' pool!! Maybe they were a little to 'focused' on how club mates/friends (who were Div2/3 eligible) were doing???

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Poulet

So why don't you want to split Division 2 and division 3 qualifiers as well, then?

The difference between a D and a C is a lot less than between a D and an A.

[wbowman]

Originally Posted by Craig

If they did poorly enough in pools to match up in the first DE round with one of those As/Bs then I would doubt they would pull out enough DE wins to qualify.

Not always the case. Look at Ray Sexton's finish in Vet60 Epee at the Reno NAC. He did poorly in the pool and had to fence a DE to get into the 16 -- and then won the event.
It's not that unusual for someone to have a bad pool and then get it together in DE's.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Poulet

So why don't you want to split Division 2 and division 3 qualifiers as well, then?

That's what they do in NJ. The logic is it gives people more chances to qualify, and more chances to earn a rating. The disadvantages? You have to preregister (and pay) for both events, and often fencers qualify in the Div II event, then leave before the III event starts (but not before pools have been made up...)

[JEC]

Originally Posted by wbowman

Not always the case. Look at Ray Sexton's finish in Vet60 Epee at the Reno NAC. He did poorly in the pool and had to fence a DE to get into the 16 -- and then won the event.
It's not that unusual for someone to have a bad pool and then get it together in DE's.

Yes, but Ray is an A05 in Epee (and B in Foil and Sabre). He won the three VET 60 events, an unusual feat at any age.

The problem here is not how we used to qualify for events (which was to compete with As and Bs), but when a single or two highly rated fencers compete in Div II/III qualifiers, they will unbalance the pools and DEs.

[fencerX]

Originally Posted by JEC

He won the three VET 60 events, an unusual feat at any age.

Especially unusual for those not over 60 ...

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Craig

If they did poorly enough in pools to match up in the first DE round with one of those As/Bs then I would doubt they would pull out enough DE wins to qualify. Until a few years ago, this is how we did all national qualifying events.

Craig

Of course, fairness and history aren't really relevant. An event should be fenced according to the current season's rules. From section 2.7.1 of the Athlete's Handbook:

In addition to citizenship requirements, fencers must meet the age and classification requirements of the USFA Championship at the time of the qualifier in order to compete in that qualifier.

Section 2.11.3 provides for a combined Div II and Div III qualifying event. It is up to the division to decide whether to hold a combined qualifying event or to hold separate qualifying events. The division may not decide to permit As and Bs to fence in the event. As and Bs may not fence at a Div II qualifier except in a few cases, such as when a rating has been earned so recently that it has not been processed and thus is not yet in effect for that event.

If you are in a division where events are not being run according to the rules, talk to the organizers to make sure that both you and they understand the rules. If they are intentionally and repeatedly violating USFA rules for organizing tournaments, then you may wish to raise this issue at your division meeting, run for a division office yourself, and/or notify the USFA.

[hello?]

I think Div 2 and 3 should be split....I think they were combined when everyone automatically qualified for Div 3, but now it's different..I THINK that this was the reason the Veteran NACs were split by age group. Until last year, everybody over 40 competed together throughout the year and then the team was picked by 'extracting' the over 50 and over 60 results -- but the over-50/over-60 competitors argued that a 40 year old could have knocked them out in an earlier round...affecting their team standing even though they themselves were not eligible to compete.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by JEC

However, the reading of the rules is that:

the eligibility to compete is determined at time of entry deadline for competition

Section 2.5 of the athlete handbook, but section 2.11.3 reads:

The two statements appear to disagree. I would argue that since x fencer cannot fence in div 2/3 nationals (since they are a B), they should not be allowed to fence in the qualifiers, and therefore deprive an eligible fencer of a qualification spot.

[KD5MDK]

They do not deprive a fencer of a qualification spot by entering. When determining eligable spots, fencers already qualified (or ineligable) are not counted. Otherwise, it would be impossible to have Cs fence a combined Div II/III qualifier.