Divisionals f&ck ups

[little_old_me]

As I understand, it works the same way as if someone qualifies for Div II or Div III and somehow earns his B before nationals. The fencer can still participate, because at the time of registration he was legal.

(Wow, a B at a Div III... That would be crazy)

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

As I understand, it works the same way as if someone qualifies for Div II or Div III and somehow earns his B before nationals. The fencer can still participate, because at the time of registration he was legal.

(Wow, a B at a Div III... That would be crazy)

It was a B at div 3. And it is crazy.

[Poulet]

What I really love is how people think it suddenly makes the person into a different fencer now that they have a B. They would still be the same fencer if they had a U. Maybe there is some psychological effect of knowing that you're rated higher than anyone else, but it only makes a major difference in very few cases...

[Inquartata]

They do not deprive a fencer of a qualification spot by entering. When determining eligable spots, fencers already qualified (or ineligable) are not counted.

Can't that have the same effect by reducing the number of ( counted ) entrants and thus the number of qualifiers?

[mrbiggs]

(Wow, a B at a Div III... That would be crazy)

There were 27 Cs last year, Bs and As are only a matter of time.

I strongly suspect that several division 3 qualifiers have earned their B or A at one point or another, but didn't fence in nationals because there was no longer any point. I don't have any evidence for this, but out of 27 Cs, there's usually 1 or 2 Bs.

[oiuyt]

Can't that have the same effect by reducing the number of ( counted ) entrants and thus the number of qualifiers?

I'm not sure I understand the question. A/B fecners are not allowed to fence in D2/3 qualifiers. There are several divisions that routinely ignore this rule, and then adjust the situation by pulling out the ineligible fencers and effectively pretending they were not involved (so don't take slots and don't count towards the number of entries). This is not permissible under the policies in the AH (as cited above). Any other adjustment would be even worse.

Allowing A/B fencers and then removing them from counting should have minimal average impact on the qualification of the fencers (yes, one could get bumped down by losing to one, but one could also advance when someone ELSE gets bumped down. On average that has zero net effect if all fencers of a given level are expected to perform equally well/poorly against A/B fencers (which I do NOT believe is either true or should be taken as a given)). It is, however, disallowed by USFA policy, which should make the issue a non-starter. Because it is clearly against the rules, the discussion on whether or not it materially affects the results is irrelevant.

-B

[KD5MDK]

Only if their entering prevented someone else from entering, which hardly seems likely.

[JEC]

Especially unusual for those not over 60 ...

My bad! I meant at any age category event.

[Inquartata]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Take Div II. The top 25% of the field qualifies, with a minimum of three. The example from the qualifying path chart is ( or was, I'm using the one from the old USFA site, since the current one---surprise!---seems to be down again ):


1 entry = 1 qualifier
2 entries = 2 qualifiers
3-12 entries = 3 qualifiers
13-16 entries = 4 qualifiers
17-20 entries = 5 qualifiers etc.

So you have an errant B entered, you take him out later, now you've dropped from, say, 17 entrants to 16, meaning you get one less qualifying spot. Whoever would have gotten that spot now does not qualify...

It need not concern Bs specifically, just any ineligible fencer. It could just as well involve a fencer who's a foreign national and not a permanent resident, or a fencer from another Division...letting him fence then removing him later can rob someone else of a qualifying spot.

[oiuyt]

<Explaination>

Ah, but it has no effect vis-a-vis not allowing the ineligible fencer to compete in the first place.

Don't allow the B (or foreign fencer, out of division fencer, 11-year-old, whatever) to fence and you have 16 entries and 4 qualifiers. Allow him/her to fence (making 17 entries) and then removing him/her from the results (back to 16) nets 4 qualifiers. No loss in the number of qualifying slots. The event never had 5 slots (17-20 legitimate entrants), so that 5th slot isn't "lost" (although the fencer in 5th and his/her friends/family/clubmates/etc might feel that they've somehow had it stolen from them, it wasn't there in the first place).

-B

[Fechter1]

Brad, question:
What if the divisional qualifying event required preregistration, and the fencer in question earned a B (or A) rating after that date?
In the past (D2 NAC March 2000), the USFA has allowed a B rated fencer to compete in Div2, provided that the rating was earned between the entry deadline and the event. Now, considering that qualifying events are considered the first round of nationals, how should the following case be handled?
Fencer registers for divisional qualifying event for D2/3 as a D rating.
Fencer subsequently earns a B before the qualifying tournament.

Can he fence?
Can he qualify?


(not trying to trip you up, honestly interested in the answer)

[RebelFencer]

I honestly think that if a A/B rated fencer really needs that kind of ego boost to fence in a tournament where everyone else is a D and under, then it is just sad. There's also no point to them fencing in it as they can't qualify for anything anyways, still have to do sectionals.

[smurfette]

Though I believe that if you make the top four at Div II nationals, you qualify for Div I for the following year. At least that's how it used to be. That's a significant incentive, especially when you have hit B purgatory -- chances are, you may not be kicking complete ass at NACS, but could get points at (much smaller/ overall easier) Nationals.

[telkanuru]

Brad, question:
What if the divisional qualifying event required preregistration, and the fencer in question earned a B (or A) rating after that date?
In the past (D2 NAC March 2000), the USFA has allowed a B rated fencer to compete in Div2, provided that the rating was earned between the entry deadline and the event. Now, considering that qualifying events are considered the first round of nationals, how should the following case be handled?
Fencer registers for divisional qualifying event for D2/3 as a D rating.
Fencer subsequently earns a B before the qualifying tournament.

Can he fence?
Can he qualify?


(not trying to trip you up, honestly interested in the answer)

The way it's been explained to me, If you earn a rating for a national event after you send in your entry, you may still fence, but not for a qualifier. So if you earn a B/A after you send in your DivII/III qual reg but before you fence it (the qualifier), you may not fence the qual, but if you earn the rating at/after the qual, you may still fence a DivII/III event at nationals.

[RebelFencer]

Though I believe that if you make the top four at Div II nationals, you qualify for Div I for the following year. At least that's how it used to be. That's a significant incentive, especially when you have hit B purgatory -- chances are, you may not be kicking complete ass at NACS, but could get points at (much smaller/ overall easier) Nationals.

Right, it would have to be at a summer nationals and not a NAC or something like that.

[smurfette]

Right, it would have to be at a summer nationals and not a NAC or something like that.

Well, that is just one of the (certainly less worthy) qualification paths. But Div I Nationals tends to be a bizarre event anyway.

[dberke]

Brad, question:
What if the divisional qualifying event required preregistration, and the fencer in question earned a B (or A) rating after that date?
In the past (D2 NAC March 2000), the USFA has allowed a B rated fencer to compete in Div2, provided that the rating was earned between the entry deadline and the event. Now, considering that qualifying events are considered the first round of nationals, how should the following case be handled?
Fencer registers for divisional qualifying event for D2/3 as a D rating.
Fencer subsequently earns a B before the qualifying tournament.

Can he fence?
Can he qualify?

(not trying to trip you up, honestly interested in the answer)

If a fencer has a B or A on the date of the D2/D3 qualifier, they can't fence, regardless of their rating when they registered. They therefore won't qualify for D2/D3 events at nationals.

I think the reason why the USFA has the exception where you can fence at a NAC or Nationals with a higher rating is because of travel expenses. Imagine that you're a D, register for a Div III event at a NAC, and buy your plane ticket. You then get your C (or higher) before the event. It would suck if you had to eat the cost of the plane ticket because you no longer could fence.

Dan

[JEC]

If a fencer has a B or A on the date of the D2/D3 qualifier, they can't fence, regardless of their rating when they registered. They therefore won't qualify for D2/D3 events at nationals.

I think the reason why the USFA has the exception where you can fence at a NAC or Nationals with a higher rating is because of travel expenses. Imagine that you're a D, register for a Div III event at a NAC, and buy your plane ticket. You then get your C (or higher) before the event. It would suck if you had to eat the cost of the plane ticket because you no longer could fence.

Dan

They are able to fence in the qualifier because their divisional qualifier registration was received before they earned their higher rating, but they are unable to qualify as the Athlete Handbook clearly state that the qualifiers for Div II are the top 25% of Cs, Ds, Es, and Us at time of the tournament, whereas the Div. III qualifiers are the top 25% of Ds, Es, and Us in a combined Div II/III tournament.

[darius]

I've got a bout committee question: how important is separating clubs considered for running tournament purposes? At a Div2/3 qualifier last weekend, the pools were properly seeded by rating, but with no regards to club.

Therefore, one pool contained all the members from one club, who evenly beat each other, leaving most of them underseeded. From there, it was upset city as that pool dominated the tableau.

Naturally, some fencers (whom an outside observer would expect to make the qualifying cut) pulled tougher DEs because of it, and got knocked out. Is separating fencers by club a requirement which would call the results of the event into question, or is that just tough luck?

darius

[Allen Evans]

Therefore, one pool contained all the members from one club, who evenly beat each other, leaving most of them underseeded. From there, it was upset city as that pool dominated the tableau.

I am stupefied that this sort of thing happens. In any tournament, it is important to separate clubs/Divisions/Nations as much as possible. Of course at local tournament, if of the 20 fencers, fifteen are from the same club, it is impossible to make pools without a lot of members of the same club in each pool.

The operations manual and the rules (I believe) demand that potential conflicts such as this be resolved as much as possible.

You need to get a new bout committee for that tournament.