College Fencing Programs

[SMSEpee]

Our son is starting his college search. We've been to the USFA website to look up the colleges and univesities that have NCAA teams-his ultimate desire is to fence NCAA. But there is also a large number of schools with club fencing. My question is this-which of those club schools have the consistently stronger programs? Lots of competition, good coaching, etc.

His grades are excellent (4.0+), but due to the amount of time he dedicates to fencing, he's involved in very few extracurriculars and hasn't had the time to spend a summer bringing water to small villages in a third world country.

Therefore, we think that his chances at getting in to one of the NCAA schools is going to be slim. That being said, HE chose fencing as his passion, not as a ticket into an Ivy League school. It just so happens that NCAA fencing occurs in the Ivies.

HE believes in his soul that he will fence NCAA, and as a parent I want to support that belief. But also as a parent I know sometimes things don't work out the way you plan and it's always good to have a Plan B.

So, anyone want to put in a word for their clubs? If he doesn't fence NCAA, I imagine we will continue support trips to NACs, Circuit Cups, etc.

Our College tour is this summer, so help me plan the route!


TIA,
Parent in the Headlights

[vooter]

Well, here's the current men's top ten in fencing:

1. Ohio State
2. Notre Dame
3. Penn State
4. Harvard
5. Columbia
6. St. John's (N.Y.)
7. Princeton
8. Penn
9. Stanford
10. Duke

Only four of those schools are in the Ivy League, and two are state schools. Why not look at Ohio State and Penn State (or any other number of state schools around the country that I would almost guarantee have fencing programs (Division 1 or otherwise)? I know that many people don't agree with me, but I personally think that private colleges and universities (unless you already know, for example, that you want to go into medicine) are a COMPLETE RIP-OFF (and I attended one--Fordham). Your son will learn EXACTLY the same things at a state school, and it will cost WAY less money (especially, of course, if it's a state school in your state). Now, obviously, if he can finagle a full scholarship to a private school, then this argument is moot. But personally, I would be concentrating on state schools....

Gary

[mrbiggs]

How good is your son at fencing? Some of those top 10 schools aren't very difficult to get into academically, but it's hard to get onto the fencing team.

Also, talk to the coaches. They're usually nice and helpful.

[ra2000a]

How's Brown as a team?

[Peach]

Keep in mind that if a coach knows your son is a competent fencer and a good student and is applying to a school, and if the coach needs your son (seniors graduating in his weapon, injuries, etc.) he or she can put in a word with the admissions office. It isn't enough to guarantee admission but it is the equivalent (in terms of "resume variety") of interesting volunteer work when it comes to considering applications. Remember that the Ivies (and many other schools which are equivalent in academic rigor and distinguished faculty, without the brand-name recognition) do not offer athletic scholarships and must depend on getting students who want to apply because of the academic programs. Many times, coaches for some of these schools have approached me to ask what I know about young women who fence WS and who have applied to their schools.

That said, my daughter went to Brandeis, an excellent school, and Bill Shipman is a good coach with a strong record who gets fencers to the NCAA Championships every year.

The down side of fencing seriously in college is that many of the students are burned out by the time they finish. It's like having a full-time high-intensity job for most of the year, and is (I think) more so in the state schools with strong fencing teams and athletic scholarships than it is in the smaller schools. A coach can really put intense pressure on a student if the student is on athletic scholarship, because the student has to perform or lose the scholarship.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Peach

The down side of fencing seriously in college is that many of the students are burned out by the time they finish. It's like having a full-time high-intensity job for most of the year, and is (I think) more so in the state schools with strong fencing teams and athletic scholarships than it is in the smaller schools.

She speaks the truth. Once fencing becomes your "job", it starts to get old very quickly.

[Tomas N]

Originally Posted by vooter

Your son will learn EXACTLY the same things at a state school, and it will cost WAY less money (especially, of course, if it's a state school in your state).

Having taught at both a large state university (Illinois) and a small liberal arts college (Allegheny), I have to respectfully disagree with this assessment. Some folks will flourish at a state school and some will do better at a smaller school, but to say that the course of instruction and overall educational experience are exactly the same is very far from the truth.

Tomas

[KD5MDK]

Students who know how to take advantage of the opportunities at a state school can come out every bit as well off as students at a private school. However, it generally takes more effort on the student's part to do that, rather than being reasonably integral. Also note that not all private schools are close to the same: Duke and Middlebury are tremendously different.

Other important details: What part of the country are you in? Will he want to stay close to home, or is a longer distance acceptable? I'm happy having gone to school in the same city as I grew up in, but I did move out of the house and into dorms/apartments. On the other hand, I had a friend who really did need to go to Stanford (he had a controlling mother, and I'd say Stanford was about as close to her as he could afford to be) and lots of friends who did well going to either coast for college.

[sleepyweasle]

you should also consider what he is interested in academically. some schools are stronger in certain departments and some have programs not offerred by others (i.e. film production, theater, engineering, journalism, etc.).

that being said - I have to agree with everyone about fencing in college. My daughter fences at a Div 1 school and has come to hate fencing season as it's very difficult to keep up with school work and have any kind of social life when you are at practice every day and away at meets every weekend.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by ra2000a

How's Brown as a team?

PM me with anything (and more) that you want to know.

[Spike327]

Originally Posted by sleepyweasle

My daughter fences at a Div 1 school and has come to hate fencing season as it's very difficult to keep up with school work and have any kind of social life when you are at practice every day and away at meets every weekend.

I definitely agree. You shouldn't pick the school based just on the fencing there, because that's sort of the first step down the road where fencing is more important than school or life. If your son doesn't have a varsity NCAA meet every weekend he definitely might be better off anyway, and the NACs will always be there. That being said, an NCAA competitive school--especially a Division I school which can hold more practices--will elevate your son's fencing a lot. As sleepy said, it's sometimes a steep price for that gain.

[Spike327]

Also, here's the most recent coaches' poll for NCAA men's fencing:

1 Ohio State
2 Notre Dame
t Penn State
4 Harvard
5 St.John's (NY)
6 Columbia
7 Stanford
8 Princeton
9 Pennsylvania
10 North Carolina
Others -- Rutgers, UC-San Diego, Brandeis, NYU, Wayne State (MI), Yale, Air Force

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Peach

Keep in mind that if a coach knows your son is a competent fencer and a good student and is applying to a school, and if the coach needs your son (seniors graduating in his weapon, injuries, etc.) he or she can put in a word with the admissions office. It isn't enough to guarantee admission but it is the equivalent (in terms of "resume variety") of interesting volunteer work when it comes to considering applications. Remember that the Ivies (and many other schools which are equivalent in academic rigor and distinguished faculty, without the brand-name recognition) do not offer athletic scholarships and must depend on getting students who want to apply because of the academic programs. Many times, coaches for some of these schools have approached me to ask what I know about young women who fence WS and who have applied to their schools.

Another thing to keep is mind is that while scholarships are few and far between, most NCAA schools do recruit. Talk to the coaches. If you're serious about going to a school, if they want you, and if you meet minimal academic standards, you will get in. All of the Ivy schools do this. I've heard that if you apply to Duke as a fencer, there is a ~90% admission rate. Most fencing coaches can seriously help you get in to the school, but this all depends on how good you are as a fencer. The stronger the fencing program, the less likely they'll want to tag you as a recruit (since schools have a limited number of recruiting spots).

[rustica]

Have you visited the web sites for schools your son is considering? Often you will find a "contact the coach" or other info regarding recruitment and the fencing programs.

And when you say his dream is to fence NCAA......is he thinking the almost weekly duals competitions or making it as one of the 24 in his weapon who will qualify for the championships? Big, big difference. As the sport grows stronger and in popularity, the varsity slots will be filled by the upperclassmen. I know more than a couple of frosh this year who didn't get to go to Houston for that very reason. Does he wish to be a big fish and fence or a team player to help the whole school? Just one more caveat. Some of the schools on the list posted above spend a lot on recruiting foreign fencers, leaving very little cash to help the kids from the US.

[mlr2fence]

Out of curiosity...is there a minimal competency that is generally required/desired to even be considered? On the NRPS, certain ratings, belongng to certain clubs, etc? I realize it verifies with the schools, weapon, gender, etc.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

Out of curiosity...is there a minimal competency that is generally required/desired to even be considered? On the NRPS, certain ratings, belongng to certain clubs, etc? I realize it verifies with the schools, weapon, gender, etc.

Well, many NCAA teams fill out there roster with people who have never fenced before. It varies so much by school that there is no universal response which could be appropriate.

[noodle]

after just getting done with usacfc's two hours ago, i'd like to remind people that there are some really good club teams. you son can still compete intercollegiately and at nacs and such, while not having the "job" aspect of it at a club team. there are many strong teams available

[SMSEpee]

Originally Posted by vooter

I know that many people don't agree with me, but I personally think that private colleges and universities (unless you already know, for example, that you want to go into medicine) are a COMPLETE RIP-OFF (and I attended one--Fordham). Your son will learn EXACTLY the same things at a state school, and it will cost WAY less money (especially, of course, if it's a state school in your state). Now, obviously, if he can finagle a full scholarship to a private school, then this argument is moot. But personally, I would be concentrating on state schools....

Gary

Gary-

Well, this momma went to a small liberal arts college, got an excellent education, and had a full ride for two years. The rest was a financial aid package. Small classes, full professors teaching, 97-98% of students applying to grad/med/law/etc. schools accepted. And I LOVED IT!!!

It all depends on the endowment as to whether the state school is less $$$ than the private. Financial aid and packaging of money is an art form these days.

But to each his own opinion.

[SMSEpee]

Oh yeah, he fences epee. Wants to major in biology, but engineering hasn't been ruled out. Who knows at this stage...

I've got to run, but will check back in this p.m

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by noodle

after just getting done with usacfc's two hours ago, i'd like to remind people that there are some really good club teams. you son can still compete intercollegiately and at nacs and such, while not having the "job" aspect of it at a club team. there are many strong teams available

Just remember - club team fencers can fence collegiately and at regionals but cannot fence at NCAA championships as they are not cleared by the NCAA clearing house which every official NCAA athlete must go through.

This said I fenced four years for a club school (MSU - we got title IXed out of a varsity program 2 years before I got there). The midwest region is a very competitive region including Ohio State, ND, Northwestern and Wayne State (very strong sabre program) along with another 8-10 club school which perform at varying levels. The education and fencing were great but it can be a real bummer at the end of the year not to get to go to NCAAs.

My Senior year my epee squad had three NCAA caliber fencers on it (though one guy may not have fenced the requisite # of bouts). We fell a double touch short of knocking ND off for the Midwest epee title, and took second place above Ohio State that year ('02). So clubs teams can be competitive and DO fence against varsity competition - but do not get the opportunity to fence at NCAAs.