FIE Masks

[DHCJr]

A incident happened at the Pacific Coast Junior Sectional/SRYC. A fencer bougth what they were told by the vendor was an FIE mask and it did have what appeared to be was a FIE shield. There was a few problems. First there was no date. Second the manufacturer was Le' Mask. They have never been certified. The mask brand was Cartel.

The site to get the list of approved masks is http://www.fie.ch/download/rules/fr/...E%20050922.pdf

This is the most current as of the date, I am posting this, but this list does change, so go directly to the web site under rules to find the latest in the future.

The brand name has no meaning, except for the publicity rules. Always check inside the FIE shield and look at the manufacturer's name and that the year is the same or after the certification date. For visor mask the year and month must be stamped on the visor and it must be within 2 years.

[Purple Fencer]

Did you find who the vendor was (You can PM me that one)

I presume you told Dan about this??

[yeoldearmourer]

Never heard of that one I like Donald try to keep up with what is FIE and whAT NOT

[DHCJr]

Dan knows as he was there. But as most people do not keep up with any of the new rulings of the FIE, the vendor trusted their supplier who told them it was a new FIE.

[Frank Pratt]

Dan knows as he was there. But as most people do not keep up with any of the new rulings of the FIE, the vendor trusted their supplier who told them it was a new FIE.

Even if the vendor trusted their supplier, shouldn't they have checked for FIE approval themselves? The absence of a date on the FIE label should have been a huge red flag. In the end, they're 100% responsible for what they sell, IMO.

[DHCJr]

Even if the vendor trusted their supplier, shouldn't they have checked for FIE approval themselves? The absence of a date on the FIE label should have been a huge red flag. In the end, they're 100% responsible for what they sell, IMO.

IF they knew a date was required. How many people really read the appendix. Let us use your argument, shouldn't the fencer when they got the mask and saw no date have raised a red flag.

What I am trying to say it is the fencer's responsibility to know the rules. Not just when buying equipment, but when they are fencing. If a referee makes a ruling and you do not know the rules, you can't protest a bad ruling.

Know and Understand the rules!

[KD5MDK]

Did the shield say "FIE" on it? In other words, is there a chance the manufacturer was actually misrepresenting the status, or was it just a design that was confusingly similar (probably on purpose) to the FIE logo.

[Frank Pratt]

<snip...> What I am trying to say it is the fencer's responsibility to know the rules. Not just when buying equipment, but when they are fencing

Good point. Vendor and manufacturers cannot be carded for illegal equipment on the strip.

[Joe biebel]

I know that the mask would still be legal in a USFA competition, assuming it passed inspection. FIE tournaments would need the proper tag and certification. The mask (if passing) is legal for USFA competition, but there is either fraud, misrepresentation, or if the mask is being "passed off" as a FIE certified mask, someone made a serious mistake, at best. If I were a vendor, buying FIE certified goods, to be sold as FIE, I would at least make sure that I was knowledgable enough to know real from fake. It does not sound from the original post like it was a serious attempt at forgery.

[DHCJr]

Did the shield say "FIE" on it? In other words, is there a chance the manufacturer was actually misrepresenting the status, or was it just a design that was confusingly similar (probably on purpose) to the FIE logo.

It looked exactly like the FIE shield for Uniforms that is in the rule book. The only difference was no date in the area reserved for that.

I still believe Buyer beware.

[fencerX]

A incident happened at the Pacific Coast Junior Sectional/SRYC. A fencer bougth what they were told by the vendor was an FIE mask and it did have what appeared to be was a FIE shield. There was a few problems. First there was no date. Second the manufacturer was Le' Mask. They have never been certified. The mask brand was Cartel.

First simple question: did the armourer pass the mask? Second, if it was not passed then why not?

<snip...> What I am trying to say it is the fencer's responsibility to know the rules. Not just when buying equipment, but when they are fencing

It may be beneficial for a SRYC fencer to know various parts of the material rules, however the fencer's real responsibility is to present and use a mask capable of passing inspection, no matter if it's a non-FIE, FIE or mask incorrectly marked as FIE. Did the SRYC fencer meet their responsibility to do that?

[KD5MDK]

Presumably the mask itself was not physically defective in any way, and so would be legal for USFA competition.

Cartel is not on the list of FIE masks approved. There are several companies I've never heard of (Frank Fechtservice, Diamant, Mangold Fechtsport, etc), 2 I know are gone (France Lames and Santelli, although presumably their gear is still good) and, rather curiously, Negrini is on the list twice. Is there a story behind that?

As for FIE certified goods, the Triplette website still talks about their 2003 FIE mask, and everybody ought to know about France Lames and their blades.

[fencerbill]

Even the best mask manufacturers sometimes goof. We have had FIE 1600 N. masks around since about 1993. Around 2000 it became fashionable for the manufacturers to also put a fabric label with FIE certification on their Foil/Epee masks as well as the label printed on the, usually plastic, backstrap. This one manufacturer, trying to catch up with the fashion, put their uniform label on their masks. Unfortunately, the uniform label said 800 N, although the printed label did, in fact, properly say 1600 N. It took a call by Dan DeChaine to the manufacturer from the 2000 Junior/Cadet World Championships in South Bend to get it straightened out.

[DHCJr]

First, we must distinguishes the brand name from the manufacturer name. It does not matter if it was a Cartel mask. Suppose the mask had Gajardoni and a 2006 date in the FIE shield, it would be legal. The manufacturer was listed as Le' Mask and that is where the trouble lies.

Yes it was passed, but in returning it to the fencer they were told it was NOT a FIE mask. They took it back to the vendor who wasn't pleased. If you buy what you are told is a diamond and you pay diamond price and you find out it is actually Zirconian, would you take it back and demand your money back. You can still where it and it looks right.

This is not a question of if they presented legal equipment. This is about paying for a silk purse and getting a sow's ear.

Negrinni had 2 different styles of masks. The problem is the only way to know what the differences are is to see the 1 of 3 masks that are kept by SEMI to make sure nothing has been changed. That is not available to you and me.

[Purple Fencer]

If I were a vendor, buying FIE certified goods, to be sold as FIE, I would at least make sure that I was knowledgable enough to know real from fake.

That was one of my reasons for attending armorers college. as a matter of fact.

[KD5MDK]

First, we must distinguishes the brand name from the manufacturer name. It does not matter if it was a Cartel mask. Suppose the mask had Gajardoni and a 2006 date in the FIE shield, it would be legal. The manufacturer was listed as Le' Mask and that is where the trouble lies.

My point was more that the vendor shouldn't have made that mistake either. Suppose you were shown a mask branded as Uhlmann but made by Le' Mask. It would not be FIE either, but the fact it said "Uhlmann" on it somewhere and "Le' Mask FIE" elsewhere would be confusing. However, something that said "Cartel" one place and "Le' Mask FIE" another is less confusing, as neither has an FIE homologated design.

[fencerX]

I presume you told Dan about this??

The biggest question is why should this be new news to any of the long time armourers? Bogus "FIE" masks from "Le Mask" were being caught almost 6 years ago at the 2000 summer nationals.

[Purple Fencer]

The biggest question is why should this be new news to any of the long time armourers? Bogus "FIE" masks from "Le Mask" were being caught almost 6 years ago at the 2000 summer nationals.

To the long time armorers it's old news....but to the guy plunking down his hard-earned money for an FIE mask, it's a big deal.

Not so much if it's for domestic competition and is actually a good mask in and of itself, but if you're going to your first Intl. event, it'll result in a rude awakening when you get there and find you have a mask with a fraudulent FIE mark.

Good example from recently is the oft-mentioned "FIE" mask Triplette sold (they they've finally stopped calling an FIE). It had Triplette's name IN the FIE shield, but Walter never made an FIE mask domestically....nor did he ever submit a mask for homolugation.

The mask is a Garjodoni -- which is a valid brand -- but it was marketed as an FIE mask made in the US...the only US masks on the list are Santelli and BG.

[fatfencer]

So Gajardoni makes a legitimate FIE mask but it is misrepresented as an American made FIE mask...is that the whole issue with Triplette?

If so, honestly, its trivial.

It would be infinitely more serious IF the mask was never an FIE mask, be cause there is a complete misrepresentation of safety.

My understanding is that this is NOT the case, but that the mask was mislabeled as American made and not Italian.

Frankly, American made or no I would never buy a Santelli or a BG anything let alone a mask. Aren't BG masks all made in china like the rest of it?

American made is usually a POOR sign of quality....usually.

Fatfencer

[Purple Fencer]

So Gajardoni makes a legitimate FIE mask but it is misrepresented as an American made FIE mask...is that the whole issue with Triplette?

If so, honestly, its trivial.

In terms of the safety of the mask, perhaps, but not in terms of false advertising. And if you took that mask to an FIE event, it would NOT be legal, thus forcing the fencer to obtain a legal FIE mask...possibly from a vendor, i.e. shelling out more money.

Frankly, American made or no I would never buy a Santelli or a BG anything let alone a mask. Aren't BG masks all made in china like the rest of it?

American made is usually a POOR sign of quality....usually.

The same used to be said of "Made in Japan" following WWII, but the quality came up.

If the mask is properly and legitimately homolugatged, it's good for use. Remember that 86 was the year the Santelli mask was homolugated, not the year it was made...so a Santelli made around 2000 would be good (if they DID make them thatg late...dunno).

BG masks are made in China....and so are the current Uhlmanns...as long as the mesh withstands 25kg, it'll pass.