03-31-2006, 04:54 PM
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#2 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,164
| IMO it's a bit like asking whether the United States should be returned to the various Indian tribes. What's done is done. Circumstances and practices were very different when the deeds were done. I don't see an issue of theft or unethical ownership.
OTOH it would be nice to see the Parthenon put back together as far as possible. Problem is, the marbles would just go into another museum instead, I suspect. Too valuable to be erected in their former positions... | 
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03-31-2006, 06:51 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Posts: 2,993
| They should be returned to Greece. Every culture and nation should have the opportunity to trash its own heritage rather than have strangers trash it for them.
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04-01-2006, 11:33 AM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,986
| Personally, I think they should be returned, especially in such a politicized case. It's rare to see nations return land to prior owners (disrupting the current inhabitants), but there's plenty of precedent in returning art and antiques expropriated through conquest or imperialism. As an example, the Metropolitan Museum of New York is returning artifacts taken from Italy, and the last 60 years have established the legal basis of returning art stolen during WW II.
Does this mean everything returns to its land of origin? I doubt it, so I think Venus De Milo and Winged Victory will still be in the Louvre for a long time.
Darn. Forgot to make this an April Fools entry!
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Last edited by jeff; 04-01-2006 at 11:39 AM.
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04-01-2006, 02:06 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico
Posts: 107
| Yes i agree that they should be returned | |
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04-01-2006, 09:49 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,999
| It certainly shouldn't be returned. It be kept where people can truly appreciate it. The modern Greeks certainly don't know how to. The Parthenon is a dump now while the Jewish faith based churches there are in splendor.. The Modern Greeks have no cultural or traditional connection to their great past. They could hardly even be called Greek anymore. I don't even think they are genetically the same people. Returning the marbles to the Parthenon makes about as much sense as returning them to Jerusalem.
Last edited by ReverseLunge; 04-01-2006 at 09:54 PM.
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04-02-2006, 10:14 PM
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#7 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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Originally Posted by jeff the Metropolitan Museum of New York is returning artifacts taken from Italy | Only as a consequence of a "deal" being made, though, not as a legal precedent. The Met is going to be keeping some stuff and is guaranteed the loan of some other stuff, etc. A mutually beneficial outcome has been negotiated privately, without government coercion.
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04-03-2006, 03:03 AM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: GREECE/Piraeus
Posts: 1,310
| The marbles must return to their original place.
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04-03-2006, 03:36 AM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: GREECE/Piraeus
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Originally Posted by ReverseLunge It certainly shouldn't be returned. It be kept where people can truly appreciate it. The modern Greeks certainly don't know how to. The Parthenon is a dump now while the Jewish faith based churches there are in splendor.. The Modern Greeks have no cultural or traditional connection to their great past. They could hardly even be called Greek anymore. I don't even think they are genetically the same people. Returning the marbles to the Parthenon makes about as much sense as returning them to Jerusalem. | Why do you like to insult people.That I can not understand. Especialy when you speak for a nation and for religion.
I tell you the following: prove it .
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The purpose of tactic is to conquer the enemy with proper war movements and actions.
-Tactics of Emperor Leon 6th the Wise
Last edited by VELISARIOS; 04-03-2006 at 03:41 AM.
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04-03-2006, 09:36 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,986
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Originally Posted by Inquartata Only as a consequence of a "deal" being made, though, not as a legal precedent. The Met is going to be keeping some stuff and is guaranteed the loan of some other stuff, etc. A mutually beneficial outcome has been negotiated privately, without government coercion.
Milton Friedman would be proud. | So, who said it had to be a legal precedent? I asked "should?" not "how?". Though there certainly was governmental pressure on the Met. You think this was the result of curators meeting over espresso?.
Who is the "owner" of the Elgin marbles today? Is the British Museum an agency of HM Government or a non-governmental institution? Lord Elgin wasn't acting as an agent of the Crown when he expropriated the marbles in the first place
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, theory and practice are different."
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04-03-2006, 11:16 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 849
| Absolutely not!
The whole of the Western world is littered with the 'spoils' of our previous history. Now it is easy to get bogged down in the idea that we should apologise for this history. The Chinese got hot and bothered about 23,000 sculptures and relics looted by Anglo-French armies from the Summer Palace in Beijing in 1860, and exhibited in the British Museum. Visiting China at the time, Tony Blair was said to have infuriated campaigners by replying to restitution requests with the words: 'Sorry about that. It's something that happened in history.' That's about all you can say in my opinion. What about the Benin Bronzes, looted by us in 1897, when they deposed the Oba of Benin and burned his capital. Some are displayed in the British Museum's new Sainsbury Gallery, should they go back?
But more broadly than that- There is no reason why the Elgin marbles should go back any more than the Queen Nefertiti from the Berlin Museum, the statues of Hatshepsut in the Metropolitan Museum of New York (what did Bill have to say about this claim?), the statue of Ramses II in the Louvre and the obelisk in the Place de la Concorde in Paris. If you apply this principle, then what is the future for museums?
So then this is an assertion of Greek nationalism, not a genuine feeling of national empitness at their loss. The Greeks claim that this is not the case- it is just that they feel the Parthenon is incomplete without them. BUT it is not the case that this will happen. The marbles will NOT be reaffixed to the Parthenon, but, instead, put in a new museum being constructed on the slopes of the Acropolis. The Parthenon will remain incomplete.
We see the British museam is a national treasure as well, almost a monument itself. Finders keepers I'm afraid- or pay us for keeping it in safe storage for 200 years!
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04-03-2006, 06:17 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,999
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Originally Posted by VELISARIOS Why do you like to insult people.That I can not understand. Especialy when you speak for a nation and for religion.
I tell you the following: prove it . | Why don't you prove it yourself? Can you tell me what kind of spiritual connection you have to the acient greeks? Can you even read the ancient scripts? Do you practice any of the ancient greek traditions? Are their gods your gods? Do you even have the same bloodline? | |
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04-03-2006, 08:12 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary,Alberta Canada
Posts: 298
| Just for the record, returns of this type are possible.
British Columbia's Haisla tribe recently had a totem pole returned after a Swedish museum had it for seventy-seven years. http://northernblue.ca/ablog/index.p...st-Nation.html | |
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04-03-2006, 08:35 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A mushroom near the Mediterranean
Posts: 238
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Originally Posted by ReverseLunge Can you even read the ancient scripts? | Most people who live in Greece now have to take years of ancient Greek as a standard part of the education system. And the Greek spoken now has many similarities with the ancient language, not to mention the same alphabet, though it is a hell of a lot easier to learn. So I would hazard that yes, most can read (and even understand) the "ancient scripts."
All history is, of course, to a large extent, "constructed," especially in the sense of linking various, often divergent regional pasts into a "national" history. But I have to say: "Modern Greeks" have done a wonderful job of assembling a powerful national past using the ever present archaeological landscape, knowledge of ancient texts, and folkore traditions. All despite the theft and expropriation of one of the most valuable artifacts, the Parthenon Frieze, through yet another British (crypto)-colonial project. | |
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04-03-2006, 08:54 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
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Originally Posted by smurfette But I have to say: "Modern Greeks" have done a wonderful job of assembling a powerful national past using the ever present archaeological landscape, knowledge of ancient texts, and folkore traditions. All despite the theft and expropriation of one of the most valuable artifacts, the Parthenon Frieze, through yet another British (crypto)-colonial project. (Bold added) | I fail to see how the theft of one artifact, even one as magnificent as the Parthenon Frieze, could present a serious stumbling block to "assembling a powerful national past". Given the vast sea of other artifacts, not to mention the "ancient texts, and folkore traditions" you mention, finding--or even manufacturing from scratch--a usable national identity would be pretty easy.
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04-03-2006, 09:14 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A mushroom near the Mediterranean
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Originally Posted by lochinvar I fail to see how the theft of one artifact, even one as magnificent as the Parthenon Frieze, could present a serious stumbling block to "assembling a powerful national past". Given the vast sea of other artifacts, not to mention the "ancient texts, and folkore traditions" you mention, finding--or even manufacturing from scratch--a usable national identity would be pretty easy. | I see your point, and indeed, the Hellenic past is one of the more powerful usable histories out there. The Parthenon Frieze would, however, really flesh out the (surprisingly small -- despite the Karyatids) collection at the Parthenon museum. But that's not the main issue. Rather, there is the question of "trusting" the Greeks to be stewards of the artifacts that have come from their own soil. The "marbles" were taken just before Greek independence, and despite earlier problems (damaging the exisiting metopes during skirmishes with the Turks), there can be little question that Greece now has the resources to house these artifacts.
On a broader scale, I would argue that housing the frieze AT the Parthenon itself would add a lot to the display and reception of the site as a whole. If, as those who tend to oppose repatriation of various artifacts often argue, art belongs to humanity at large (whatever that means), then displaying the frieze in the space where it was originally constructed might greatly augment possibilities of reception and interpretation. As it is displayed now, mounted on the walls of a museum in a wholly different city, the original function of the frieze as part of the built environment is entirely elided. So, I would say there are a number of divergent arguments for the return of the marbles. (And almost as many against it).
Last edited by smurfette; 04-03-2006 at 09:18 PM.
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04-03-2006, 09:22 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,999
| It would be fantastic if they put it on TV ans smashed it all up for the Greeks to see. | |
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04-03-2006, 10:10 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: A mushroom near the Mediterranean
Posts: 238
| Well, that's pretty much the last word. | |
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04-03-2006, 10:38 PM
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#19 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
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Originally Posted by VELISARIOS The marbles must return to their original place. | What, the quarry?  | |
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04-04-2006, 04:07 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: GREECE/Piraeus
Posts: 1,310
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Originally Posted by ReverseLunge Why don't you prove it yourself? Can you tell me what kind of spiritual connection you have to the acient greeks? Can you even read the ancient scripts? Do you practice any of the ancient greek traditions? Are their gods your gods? Do you even have the same bloodline? | First of all. we do not need proves to be Greeks.But because you ask for it I can tell you.
'Can you tell me what kind of spiritual connection you have to the acient greeks?'
We study and live with our spirituality of our ascenors and we keep our way even now. And this is our culture and our philosophy.
'Can you even read the ancient scripts?'
Yes I can do. The most Greeks can do because it is our language.And in what dilect you want to speak you Athenian, Macedonian, Dorian?
'Do you practice any of the ancient greek traditions?'
Yes we keep the ancient Greek tratition it is in our blood.If you want to see them come here.
'Are their gods your gods?'
This question is stupid. The Arab is not Arab if he do not belive in Alah?The American is not Anerican if he belive in Budha?
But I will answer you. No. Greeks are Christians of Greek Orthodox church.
I can not speak for all Greeks!
'Do you even have the same bloodline?'
This is again a stubid question.When someone born in England for example and his family stay there for 3 generations what will should be their children? English citizents offcourse.
If a English married a German woman and their child born in England and live there and growth in English society what should be the child? English offcourse.
You must know that in ancient Athens the Athenians let 'free' foreigners to come and after some years became Athenians too. Only the Spartans do not let the others to come to their society and became 'omioi'.
Anyway if you want to know about my family tree it exists before 1300 after the birth of Christ and they live in Corinthus and they had come from the North Greece and they were serve the Byzantine army as officers, after the fall of Constantinoupole they went to Kithira island.
Now if you want to see the bloodlines of all Greeks try to speak with them.
Did I do my self clear?Unfortunately Greeks have strong roots. So do not bother us and speak with others.
Again you dont answer my question.
__________________
The purpose of tactic is to conquer the enemy with proper war movements and actions.
-Tactics of Emperor Leon 6th the Wise
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