Should the Parthenon (Elgin) Marbles be returned to Greece?

[pigeonmeister]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

I have to remind that we have no problem with British people. Just some of them (and I am speaking about them which he did sex in public places are of low education and people without ethics) troubled the people of Corfu and Rhodos island.

That alone is one of the most amusing things I have read for a while (of low education and people without ethics ). Whilst I have to agree that this is often the case I think that it should be noted that Greek men are happy to take advantage of Brit girls who behave like this (because Greek girls are very pious)- but then take the moral high ground. They want their Greek women to be saints but are less than saintly themselves come holiday season.

BTW if nobody knows what we are talking about (i.e drunken Brits in Greece)
see here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4189154.stm

Also the bit about low education, an EU survey found that the number of teenagers in Greece who are not a part of the education system is the third highest in the bloc.

The Greeks are the most religious people in Europe and the eighth most devout in the world, according to the results of a worldwide Gallup survey conducted across 68 countries. Yet a 2005 poll of 317,000 people by condom manufacturer Durex found that Greece topped the list of 41 countries as the most sexually active nation. Greeks claimed on average that they have sex 138 times a year — compared to 134 for the second-placed Croats and well above the world average of 103. But Greeks did not rank very high when it came to fidelity. Only 12 percent of respondents admitted to having only one sexual partner

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by pigeonmeister

He pops up with the occassional racist or offensive remark- he is stil an Ewardian colonialist at heart. His most notorious incident came in China when Philip was reported to have told a British student that he would end up with "slitty eyes" if he stayed there too long. Actually, as a caricature, he is actually quite amusing.

Sounds like my kinda guy.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by pigeonmeister

The Greeks are the most religious people in Europe and the eighth most devout in the world, according to the results of a worldwide Gallup survey conducted across 68 countries. Yet a 2005 poll of 317,000 people by condom manufacturer Durex found that Greece topped the list of 41 countries as the most sexually active nation. Greeks claimed on average that they have sex 138 times a year — compared to 134 for the second-placed Croats and well above the world average of 103. But Greeks did not rank very high when it came to fidelity. Only 12 percent of respondents admitted to having only one sexual partner

See what happens when you take the marbles away??

Give them back! Before it's too late!

[Louweasel]

Drunken British tourists behaving badly in Greece are an embarrassment to the nation, whatever the Greeks do themselves.

Velisarios honey, don't feed the troll (RL) - he only does it to get a reaction, so ignore him. Everyone with half a brain knows what he says is rubbish.

And *drags self back to original topic* I think the Elgin Marbles shoudl go back to Greece. As long as they are looked after and available for people to admire and research, they would be better to be kept in their nation of origin, as an important artifact from Greece's heritage. Hell, it'd p*ss me off if they put the Tower of London in the middle of Athens...

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

See what happens when you take the marbles away??

Give them back! Before it's too late!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by Louweasel

Hell, it'd p*ss me off if they put the Tower of London in the middle of Athens...

Or London Bridge in the middle of Arizona.

[Epee_Pox]

The idea of "national treasures" is a fairly recent invention of mankind. Before the rise of "romantic nationalism" in the early 1800s, it would have been bizarre to hear anyone argue that a work of art ought to be sent back to the land where it was created. And the association of works of art with national pride didn't really get started until the 1870s or so. And Greece took even longer to get around to deciding they had national pride wrapped up in the Elgin Marbles -- they never really made any effort to regain them until very recently.

For thousands of years, the Greeks have shown little but neglect for the great works of their ancient ancestors. The amazing structures have been left to decay into ruins, and the only reason the remaining ones have been preserved in their current state is because the rest of Europe spent the money to do so.

So for the Greeks to all of a sudden insist that their national pride and justice demand the return of the marbles, is pure chutzpah.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

The idea of "national treasures" is a fairly recent invention of mankind. Before the rise of "romantic nationalism" in the early 1800s, it would have been bizarre to hear anyone argue that a work of art ought to be sent back to the land where it was created. And the association of works of art with national pride didn't really get started until the 1870s or so. And Greece took even longer to get around to deciding they had national pride wrapped up in the Elgin Marbles -- they never really made any effort to regain them until very recently.

For thousands of years, the Greeks have shown little but neglect for the great works of their ancient ancestors. The amazing structures have been left to decay into ruins, and the only reason the remaining ones have been preserved in their current state is because the rest of Europe spent the money to do so.

So for the Greeks to all of a sudden insist that their national pride and justice demand the return of the marbles, is pure chutzpah.

No, I disagree with you but never mind
Can you tell me what means 'chutzpah' please?

[Inquartata]

Temerity. Brazen temerity. In the vernacular, enormous balls.

[Epee_Pox]

What Were the Elgin Marbles?
And should they really go back to Greece?

BY JOHN BOARDMAN
Sunday, April 23, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

At a time when issues of "national heritage" seem to arouse passion, the Elgin Marbles (pronounced with a hard "g") are regularly invoked. For many the matter seems simple: They were stolen from Greece by an English lord and, since they are the symbol of all that ancient Greece--as progenitor of modern civilization and democracy--stands for, they must go back. It might not hurt to consider just what they are.

In the middle of the fifth century B.C., Athens, which we regard as the home of democracy, was more effectively an imperial state, which had taken advantage of success against the Persian invasion to generate an "empire" in Greece. This had come to exclude only those too powerful to be conquered, and Athens was probably the most hated state in Greece. It was also rich, from Persian spoils and "tribute" from its empire. Athens' leaders, notably Pericles, wished to demonstrate their success and claim a role for Athens as champion of the Greeks, through the construction of a great temple--the Parthenon.

There was no Greek "nation" as such, and Greeks spent much of their energy fighting one another. The gold and ivory cult statue of Athena within the temple was to be a demonstration of wealth rather than piety, and attracted no cult. The sculptural decoration was to extol Athens' role in Greece and as favorite of all its gods.

So we find all 12 Olympian gods celebrating Athens: the birth of the city-state's goddess, Athena, in the front pediment; below it, on a string of square reliefs (metopes), the gods' fight with the Giants to secure their mastery of Greece; within the outer colonnade, in the wall-top frieze facing out, is their reception of victorious Athenians as heroes; on the cult statue's base, their blessing of Pandora, who seems a mortal equivalent of Athena, endowed with more human virtues; on the statue's shield, again, the battle with the gods. The program was unique in Greece, where temple decoration more strictly observed the needs of the local cult. This was a statement of power more in keeping with what a Persia, Assyria or Egypt might have devised. It was not one to which many other Greeks would have responded favorably, and the defeat of Athens and dismantling of its walls at the end of the fifth century must have seemed a proper retribution for such hubris. So there is not much, indeed nothing here, of Greek democracy.

But the sculptural decoration was sublime. Greek artists had, only 50 years before, begun to move away from the mannerism of the Archaic Style, and were beginning to create an idealized realism in the arts that was totally new for antiquity anywhere, and remains influential today. The best work was in bronze, but the best surviving in marble is that from the Parthenon.

The Parthenon's cult statue went to Constantinople, where it was destroyed; the building was converted into a Christian church, defacing and displacing some of the sculpture; then into a mosque; then its interior was blown up in an explosion. By the late 18th century, in Ottoman Turkish hands, it had become an attraction for western Europeans on the Grand Tour, and a quarry not only for local builders, but for collectors of ancient art. "Spare nothing," said a French collector, "neither the dead nor the live."

---

Lord Elgin first came not to collect but to copy, in plaster casts, as much of the sculpture as was available. These he would take to England to inform the arts of his day, heavily Neoclassical but quite lacking in the true Classical finesse. We can see from early casts that even within the period of his visits original relief figures on the frieze were being chiseled away, presumably for visitors; all were threatened. The only way to save them was to remove the originals. The oriental bargaining that went on and the interpretation of licenses to remove sculpture from the Acropolis are the stuff of modern arguments about "legality" that are quite foreign to the manners of the early 1800s.

Sculptures from the Parthenon--but by no means all of them, since many remained in situ until a few years ago, when they had to be rescued from the atmosphere of an industrial Athens--were taken by Elgin to England. Eventually, at great financial loss to him, they were acquired by the British Museum. Their appearance created a revolution, influencing artistic thought during the 19th century and subsequently. And in London they have remained to instruct and delight millions annually. If returned to Athens they could only go into another museum and be seen by far fewer people, since Greece is visited less for art than for sunshine. The Elgin Marbles' aesthetic effect in antiquity was slight--they were a symptom of a broader movement. But in Britain they transformed scholarly attitudes to Greek art world-wide, and have had more effect in the past 200 years than they did in over 2,000 in Athens.

In a way the story of the Elgin Marbles reflects various modern dogmas. What is "cultural heritage"? Does it belong to producers--or to the admirers who appreciate and are influenced by it? To take a local example: The Metropolitan Museum of Art recently agreed to return a fine Greek vase to Italy, whence it was probably illegally exported. But it was made in Greece; traded in antiquity to Italy, where it went straight into a tomb; and, in the past century, traded to New York, where it has gladdened and instructed millions who are as much heirs to the classical tradition in the arts as any in Europe. Perhaps the "heritage of man" deserves the widest audience possible.

Mr. Boardman is a retired professor of classical art and archaeology in Oxford, England. His next book is "The World of Ancient Art."

[Inquartata]

I think that ultimately it comes down to this: Was there at the time of the removal of the marbles from Greece any laws prohibiting it? If so, were there channels by which such removals could be made legally? And if so, did the Elgin aquisition properly go through those channels?

If there was no law, there can have been no illegality. If there was no illegality at the time, it cannot be labelled illegal retroactively. If the aquisition was not illicit, if it was standard practice at the time to do such things, if there were no legal injunctions against it, I do not see what legal grounds there can be to insist upon reversing it.

If my great-grandfather sold a piece of property, do I as his eventual "heir" get to decide that it was immoral of him to do so and to compel the great-grandchildren of the buyer to return it to me?

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

If my great-grandfather sold a piece of property, do I as his eventual "heir" get to decide that it was immoral of him to do so and to compel the great-grandchildren of the buyer to return it to me?

Hush yo mouth! Who knows how many lawyers are reading this? Let's not give them any more ideas.

[Louweasel]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

No, I disagree with you but never mind
Can you tell me what means 'chutzpah' please?

Chutzpah is the quality of a man who, having murdered both his parents, throws himself upon the mercy of the court as an orphan...

[VELISARIOS]

He said that 'The Parthenon's cult statue went to Constantinople, where it was destroyed; '
If he means the golden statue of Athena he is wrong. The statue taken from the Romans and the boat whic was destroyed and now it is at the bottom of the Adrantiki sea. It is not destroyed in Constantinopole.

[Inquartata]

That's right. I almost drowned!

[VELISARIOS]

....lol

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by Louweasel

Chutzpah is the quality of a man who, having murdered both his parents, throws himself upon the mercy of the court as an orphan...

...or cutting into the middle of a long queue, then asking the person you've displaced to scratch your back.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

...or cutting into the middle of a long queue, then asking the person you've displaced to scratch your back.

Or to hold your place for you while you go off for some other purpose (perhaps looking for a cuttable spot further up).

-B