Should the Parthenon (Elgin) Marbles be returned to Greece?

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by smurfette

Most people who live in Greece now have to take years of ancient Greek as a standard part of the education system. And the Greek spoken now has many similarities with the ancient language, not to mention the same alphabet, though it is a hell of a lot easier to learn. So I would hazard that yes, most can read (and even understand) the "ancient scripts."

All history is, of course, to a large extent, "constructed," especially in the sense of linking various, often divergent regional pasts into a "national" history. But I have to say: "Modern Greeks" have done a wonderful job of assembling a powerful national past using the ever present archaeological landscape, knowledge of ancient texts, and folkore traditions. All despite the theft and expropriation of one of the most valuable artifacts, the Parthenon Frieze, through yet another British (crypto)-colonial project.

Indeet.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

What, the quarry?

............lol

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

We study and live with our spirituality of our ascenors and we keep our way even now. And this is our culture and our philosophy.

In what way?

Yes I can do. The most Greeks can do because it is our language.And in what dilect you want to speak you Athenian, Macedonian, Dorian?

Could you please translate this in detail.
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thum...eek_tablet.jpg

Yes we keep the ancient Greek tratition it is in our blood.If you want to see them come here.

What kinds of traditions? What exactly are you doing that the ancients did?

This question is stupid. The Arab is not Arab if he do not belive in Alah?The American is not Anerican if he belive in Budha?
But I will answer you. No. Greeks are Christians of Greek Orthodox church.

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

We study and live with our spirituality of our ascenors and we keep our way even now. And this is our culture and our philosophy.

This is again a stubid question.When someone born in England for example and his family stay there for 3 generations what will should be their children? English citizents offcourse.
If a English married a German woman and their child born in England and live there and growth in English society what should be the child? English offcourse.

You have been mixed with so much Turkish and Arab blood. What percentage would you say that you are pure Greek?

Did I do my self clear?

No.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

In what way?




Could you please translate this in detail.
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thum...eek_tablet.jpg




What kinds of traditions? What exactly are you doing that the ancients did?









You have been mixed with so much Turkish and Arab blood. What percentage would you say that you are pure Greek?




No.

'In what way?'
Come here and see. I am bored to writte down and it will take long and I 'll bother the other members.

'Could you please translate this in detail.
Yes it is simple but the photo is not good, I ll translate to you when I can because I am at work now, but do not think that I 'll tranlate it in English.

'You have been mixed with so much Turkish and Arab blood. What percentage would you say that you are pure Greek?'
Poor ReverseLunge what history books have you read?
The Arabs start war against our empire when emperor was Heraclios. They won the first battles and they conquer many cities in Asia minor, Aegypt and Israel. Then they concuer Crete island.The people enslaved or slaugtered and sold at the bazars of the Arabian kingdom. After that they bring Arabs to live there exept the island of Crete and some cities of Israel, Aegypt and Asia Minor which the Arabs let unharmed the Greeks and the Syrians. Some years later the empire strikes back with the emperor Nikiphoro Phoka and libarate all Crete and some cities of Asia Minor. Marrieges offcourse between the two races exists but this was unusual because we have differnt faith.To be married you must become muslim or the oposite but this was difficuld, many Greeks prefer death than to change their belief. The problem of mixed race was in the south place of Asia minor, Aegypt etc, but again accoured of the medieval law they changed population.
Now those lands are not Greek so the matter of Arabs are closed. Even in the matter of Crete the conquest of island was near 600-700 after the birth of Christ and then the emperor bring Greeks from the Aigean and from the Hellinicon thema to live there.
The Turkish matter. When the our empire fall and the Turks enslave us many Greeks as my family refuge to the West or to the cities which are under of the protetion of the Venetians and Genova. Other became mersenaries in the Italy and other went to England, Russia and Spain. The people who became Venetian or Genova citizens kept their Orthodox faith without problem and after that they start the plans to free the Greece again. Now the people which stay in Greece they had some majors problems promblem. You have two ways. You became Ottoman and belive in Alah or 'ragias' and stay Greek and Rum (Rum in Turkish mean Romios or Greek). The people wich became Mulshim offcourse they became Ottomans and some became grant officers of the Ottomans and their army. The others were slaves when they had two male childrens and up the Ottomans took the boys from the age of 5 and they sent them to their capital. They became Ottomans and they became Jennishars. The elite warriors of the Ottomans. The girls now some took them to the harems of the Pasa and their children became Ottomans too. The others are ragiades slaves and they did not care for them. The Greeks rebeled against the Ottomans from the next day of the Constantinoupole's fall. Especialy in Peloponisous was in continues war.
Marrieges again there exists but it was very difficult because of faith. If you became muslim you became Ottoman. So none want it because you were hatefull to the Greek society. The Ottomans had the same hate for us.
I proof to you about bllodlines.
But again your thesis is not logical. Tell me a nation which is pure! Are you nazi which live with the dream of Arian race?Iones were clame the land of Pelasgians. German is combinations of Goths and Huns tribes. France were Franks, Celts, Romans, Goths. Spain are Baskoi, Vandals, Franks and Romans and the southern reachs has a little Arab blood.Italy were Latin, Greeks, some German and Normans. England is a mixture of races Celts, Picts, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Roman, Romano British.What do you say if for example someone took a Menir stone from the Stoneheige and took it to a musieum,you ll say hey men this stone was made from Celts so now the British are different race so let it to the museum?
What logic is this?
Do you want more explanation? If yes try to read the European history or the history of Greece.
Quote:

[pigeonmeister]

Originally Posted by smurfette

1.On a broader scale, I would argue that housing the frieze AT the Parthenon itself would add a lot to the display and reception of the site as a whole.

2. If, as those who tend to oppose repatriation of various artifacts often argue, art belongs to humanity at large (whatever that means), then displaying the frieze in the space where it was originally constructed might greatly augment possibilities of reception and interpretation.

3. As it is displayed now, mounted on the walls of a museum in a wholly different city, the original function of the frieze as part of the built environment is entirely elided. So, I would say there are a number of divergent arguments for the return of the marbles. (And almost as many against it).

1. But what if they did not put it back to its original place in the Parthenon? Plus, your argument is basically- it would make the museum better....er yes it would. I don't think we would dispute that.

2. I don't know what it means either. So I would just say that over the centuries countries, like people, collect a lot of weird stuff. People conquer (I mean get married!) and they gain stuff. some nations, like Britain, ended up ruling large parts of the world and they gain a bit more. I don't see why I should apologise to a present day Greek person for this, it was nothing to do with me.

3. So the criteria for the return for all ancient artifacts or monuments is that they should be a) in another country b) in a museum c) not part of the environment they were originaly built for?? To me that spells the end for all museums housing ancient artifacts.

There are times when gestures need to be made, for political reasons and this can be about dealing with particularly painful historical episodes that break into national consciousness. Yet I don't believe that the Greeks and the Brits have a bigger enough beef, for us to have to make that gesture yet. In fact we have had a long history of excellent relations- the Queen chose a Greek as her husband after all. To be honest I think that the biggest beef the Greeks have with the brits is British tourists getting very drunk and having sex in public places. They seem to hate that, and fair enough I suppose.

[smurfette]

Do you mean to say that the vast numbers of drunk British tourists having sex in public places in Greece does not demand restitution on the scale of the return of the Elgin marbles? Typical British colonial perspective. Colonize or exploit vast territories of the world, steal valuable artifacts, then say "Oh well, not my fault," what's done is done, I don't have to apologize to no one -- and then go have sex in public (probably vomiting in the midst of it). (That's of course what Byron did... but the Greeks loved him). One of the least lovely sights in the Greek islands in the summer are the vast quantity of fat, sunburned British backs. You should really give the Greeks the Parthenon frieze, and at that point, why not throw in a little Rosetta stone, since after all, it doesn't matter where something comes from or how it was taken.

[Epee_Pox]

If Greece wants them so darned badly, they should either guilt the English into giving millions of dollars worth of artifacts to them for free, or take them by force and dare the English to do something about it. Either way, I would be hugely entertained. And that's all that matters, really.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by pigeonmeister

the Queen chose a Greek as her husband after all.

I'm confused.

If the Queen has a husband, then why isn't he King? And how come I've never heard of him? So far as I can tell, the royal family consists of the Queen, her Queen Mum, Prince Charles, Prince Andrew, Someone Called Fergie, and Charles' two boys whose names I can never remember. No kings in there at all.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by pigeonmeister

Absolutely not!

The whole of the Western world is littered with the 'spoils' of our previous history. Now it is easy to get bogged down in the idea that we should apologise for this history. The Chinese got hot and bothered about 23,000 sculptures and relics looted by Anglo-French armies from the Summer Palace in Beijing in 1860, and exhibited in the British Museum. Visiting China at the time, Tony Blair was said to have infuriated campaigners by replying to restitution requests with the words: 'Sorry about that. It's something that happened in history.' That's about all you can say in my opinion. What about the Benin Bronzes, looted by us in 1897, when they deposed the Oba of Benin and burned his capital. Some are displayed in the British Museum's new Sainsbury Gallery, should they go back?

But more broadly than that- There is no reason why the Elgin marbles should go back any more than the Queen Nefertiti from the Berlin Museum, the statues of Hatshepsut in the Metropolitan Museum of New York (what did Bill have to say about this claim?), the statue of Ramses II in the Louvre and the obelisk in the Place de la Concorde in Paris. If you apply this principle, then what is the future for museums?

So then this is an assertion of Greek nationalism, not a genuine feeling of national empitness at their loss. The Greeks claim that this is not the case- it is just that they feel the Parthenon is incomplete without them. BUT it is not the case that this will happen. The marbles will NOT be reaffixed to the Parthenon, but, instead, put in a new museum being constructed on the slopes of the Acropolis. The Parthenon will remain incomplete.

We see the British museam is a national treasure as well, almost a monument itself. Finders keepers I'm afraid- or pay us for keeping it in safe storage for 200 years!

I like your point of view but I disagree with this :
'So then this is an assertion of Greek nationalism, not a genuine feeling of national empitness at their loss.'

[pigeonmeister]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

I'm confused.

If the Queen has a husband, then why isn't he King? And how come I've never heard of him? So far as I can tell, the royal family consists of the Queen, her Queen Mum, Prince Charles, Prince Andrew, Someone Called Fergie, and Charles' two boys whose names I can never remember. No kings in there at all.

Because his father wasn't King of England and the Queen's was. He was born Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark at the Greek Royal residence of Mon Repos on the island of Corfu on June 10 1921. He had an English grandmother and went to school in England but he isn't English, to marry the Queen he had to renounce his Greek Royal titles and become Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, a naturalised Briton. He can never be King- if the Queen dies, their son (Charles) becomes King.

The Queen Mum died at the age of 101 in 2002.
Fergie was not born a Royal and, now divorced, is certainly not one now.

[pigeonmeister]

[quote]

Originally Posted by smurfette

Do you mean to say that the vast numbers of drunk British tourists having sex in public places in Greece does not demand restitution on the scale of the return of the Elgin marbles?

Yes

Typical British colonial perspective. Colonize or exploit vast territories of the world, steal valuable artifacts, then say "Oh well, not my fault," what's done is done, I don't have to apologize to no one -- and then go have sex in public (probably vomiting in the midst of it).

I don't have to apologise- I have never been to Greece.

One of the least lovely sights in the Greek islands in the summer are the vast quantity of fat, sunburned British backs.

An equally delightful sight must be the hairy Greek kebab shop owners in London!

You should really give the Greeks the Parthenon frieze, and at that point, why not throw in a little Rosetta stone, since after all, it doesn't matter where something comes from or how it was taken.

Nah! anyway the French stole the Rosetta stone first!

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by pigeonmeister

Because his father wasn't King of England and the Queen's was. He was born Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark at the Greek Royal residence of Mon Repos on the island of Corfu on June 10 1921. He had an English grandmother and went to school in England but he isn't English, to marry the Queen he had to renounce his Greek Royal titles and become Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, a naturalised Briton. He can never be King- if the Queen dies, their son (Charles) becomes King.

The Queen Mum died at the age of 101 in 2002.
Fergie was not born a Royal and, now divorced, is certainly not one now.

You learn something new every day. I didn't know the Queen had a husband, much less his name. Guess he's off the American tabloids' radar. And certainly didn't know any details of what counts as a king or not.

If I may ask another naive question, what governing role do the royals have in practice? Do they serve a purpose apart from keeping up tradition?

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

You learn something new every day. I didn't know the Queen had a husband, much less his name. Guess he's off the American tabloids' radar. And certainly didn't know any details of what counts as a king or not.

If I may ask another naive question, what governing role do the royals have in practice? Do they serve a purpose apart from keeping up tradition?

See the thread on the Canadian Monarchy.

James.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by smurffette

One of the least lovely sights in the Greek islands in the summer are the vast quantity of fat, sunburned British backs.

Smurfette,

Come to Edinburgh at th height of the tourist season. You can spot an american a mile a away.

You are however, correct about stupid "Egg & Chips" type tourists.

[smurfette]

Originally Posted by Gav

Smurfette,

Come to Edinburgh at th height of the tourist season. You can spot an american a mile a away.

You are however, correct about stupid "Egg & Chips" type tourists.

Sorry Gav! I should have said "fat, sunburned English backs." Never met a Scot I didn't like. And am ashamed to say that I have been to Edinburgh at the height of the tourist season, and have cringed at the fat American backs and legs in shorts and t-shirts. Luckily for me, I tend to blend in a bit better, though not in Greece, where I am alternately dubbed German, Swiss, Swedish, French. Somehow, never English...

[VELISARIOS]

Hello to all,
calm down please there is no need for this.
The problem which pigeonmaester said is another problem but it is out of conversation. I have to remind that we have no problem with British people. Just some of them (and I am speaking about them which he did sex in public places are of low education and people without ethics) troubled the people of Corfu and Rhodos island.
But again the point is not about the low educated tourists which visit Greece but the marbles which Elgin took from Acropolis. We do not ask for apologie, we just ask the British goverment to give us back our marbles.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

We do not ask for apologie, we just ask the British goverment to give us back our marbles.

Well, it's official then--the Greeks have lost their marbles.