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Senior Member
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What to do with a U - 13? What would you do if a U - 13 fencer (say 11) shows up at an open tournament expecting to fence? With the new USFA rules they're not allowed to do so, but telling a young child that they are not allowed to fence when previously they have been is difficult.
Interested in ideas on handling the situation
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Senior Member
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Tell tham that the fault lies with those who previously erronously allowed them to fence... That's it, I'm done with the discussion forums on F.net. It's had its uses, but the ideologues, ranters, and "experts" have drowned too many of the conversations. I'm changing my password to something random and never logging in again.
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proactive Better make sure that any announcement of a tournament (other than age specific ones) that goes out stresses that U-13's will not be allowed to fence as per USFA rule. -------------------
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."
Will Rogers
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Senior Member
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If they are that young then their parents should be there and hopefully a coach.
Inform them (parents and coach)
If the coaches are better informed and are watching ages this SHOULD NOT happen.
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Member
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There are many parents that take their children to tournaments with no discussion with coaches, so it's out of the coaches hands.
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Senior Member
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 Originally Posted by k9fav There are many parents that take their children to tournaments with no discussion with coaches, so it's out of the coaches hands. As a coach myself I try to persuade all my fencers to discuss events with myself BEFORE they get there and make sure they are ready, including an equipment check from the armor the practice before.
If the coach sets that expectation it'll help out.
I cannot see WHY a U13 kiddo and parent would take their kiddo to an event without touching base with the coach.
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Originally Posted by oso97 Tell tham that the fault lies with those who previously erronously allowed them to fence... I agree with oso97. The rule isn't new, it's now clarified and publicised, if I understand correctly.
The thing is, you can't allow them to fence, but you have to realise as a tournament organizer that this person still deserves customer service level professionalism. If you're talking to the fencer, they're just going to know, "but I've fenced before!" Talking to a parent, however, you need to convey to them the fact that it is in the rules, and that you do not have the power to alter that, but you have to do it nicely. Professional, "I know where you're coming from," approach is going to be a big help. Sabre chicks are cutting edge 
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It also helps to have the restriction on all your tournament promotional materials, as well, so they're less likely to misunderstand.
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Armorer
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I agree. On the first page of the Orange Coast Web site, the policy is clearly stated. Communication is the key. Donald Hollis Clinton, Jr. DHCJr@juno.com
To Teach is to Learn (Japanese Proverb)
Knowing the rule book by heart means nothing, if you don't understand the rules.
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Now that this rule is strictly being enforced and most of the big tournaments are on askFRED, it would be very helpful if askFRED's system/program takes this into account in the registration process, like a filter system, since birthyears are in the data base anyway.
Just another enhancement Mr. Peet can add to his already good product. 
Last edited by the highlander; 03-30-2006 at 10:38 PM.
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That assumes it keeps track of who is on the Junior Rolling Points, which I believe it does not.
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK That assumes it keeps track of who is on the Junior Rolling Points, which I believe it does not. this could be handled with email, seeing as that there are only a few U13 fencers on the junior rolling points list.
I count 10 born in 1992, 0 born in 1993, looking over the points lists. Which means that this isn't too much of an issue.
Last edited by mrbiggs; 03-30-2006 at 11:04 PM.
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What steps should one take if an under 13 not only shows up, but actually fences? I'm talking here about a case of an honest mistake/miscommunication occurring and not intentional deceipt. Would this then invalidate the entire tournament for that weapon?
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Originally Posted by lindajdunn What steps should one take if an under 13 not only shows up, but actually fences? I'm talking here about a case of an honest mistake/miscommunication occurring and not intentional deceipt. Would this then invalidate the entire tournament for that weapon? We love our hypotheticals don't we. But if they were older looking, almost nobody asks to see USFA cards. If they didn't place/earn a rating I don't see what problems could arise.
On the other hand if they did place/earn a rating I would imagine they would be disqualified and everyone else moved up a notch. I don't know why it would be different from a black card DQ. "I cannot ensure success, I can only endeavor to deserve it" - Capt. John Paul Jones
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Why don't people ask to see USFA cards? I know they're not demanded often at tournaments down here, but that's because everybody on the pre-reg list has been automatically vetted with data from the Section website (which lists all valid members as of that week or so) and out of section preregistered fencers have been checked with the National Office.
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Originally Posted by RoninX We love our hypotheticals don't we. But if they were older looking, almost nobody asks to see USFA cards. If they didn't place/earn a rating I don't see what problems could arise.
On the other hand if they did place/earn a rating I would imagine they would be disqualified and everyone else moved up a notch. I don't know why it would be different from a black card DQ. Well, because it's a tournament that was not run by the rules of the USFA. As such, it could suddenly become a "non-USFA" event, meaning that no one earns any rating in it. It just becomes a "for fun" event like one of those odd, experimental events, such as the two teams of two fencing each other with all 4 fencers on strip at once. It's a fencing tournament, but no one should expect to earn a rating or anything. It's simply not sanctioned by the USFA and is not covered under the USFA rules.
The organizers should check USFA cards (both birth year and expiration date) to do their due diligence to prevent a U13 from entering. If they've done that, and there's a mistake, and a U13 does fence, then the USFA might permit them just to treat it as a black card. If the tournament organizers make no effort to prevent a U13 from fencing or knowingly permit him to fence, then they are ignoring the USFA rules. In that case, I would expect the USFA to take a much harder line and possibly declare the entire tournament a non-sanctioned event.
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Just Joined
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My club got in trouble a while ago when a 10 year old show up at the door, was allowed to fence, and won an unclasified event earning an "E". The father of girl who diddn't even fence at this event complained to the club and the USFA. Since then my club does not allow anybody under 13 to all the open events including unclasified. A few U-13 kids were sent home after they show at the door intending to fence. We allways make sure to advertice the age restrictions for all the events.
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK Why don't people ask to see USFA cards? I know they're not demanded often at tournaments down here, but that's because everybody on the pre-reg list has been automatically vetted with data from the Section website (which lists all valid members as of that week or so) and out of section preregistered fencers have been checked with the National Office.
Well, sometimes, even with current info on the Section website, errors do happen. At a recent JO Qualifier, two fencers were allowed to fence in the wrong category, and were excluded after the event. You just don't want to know what happened after that. Suffice to say, it was not pretty.
It wasn't miscommunication, but the person doing the registration. She just didn't bother to check the cards presented to her. And no, it was not a 'parent volunteer' doing the registration.
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Originally Posted by tbryan Well, because it's a tournament that was not run by the rules of the USFA. As such, it could suddenly become a "non-USFA" event, meaning that no one earns any rating in it. It just becomes a "for fun" event like one of those odd, experimental events, such as the two teams of two fencing each other with all 4 fencers on strip at once. It's a fencing tournament, but no one should expect to earn a rating or anything. It's simply not sanctioned by the USFA and is not covered under the USFA rules.
The organizers should check USFA cards (both birth year and expiration date) to do their due diligence to prevent a U13 from entering. If they've done that, and there's a mistake, and a U13 does fence, then the USFA might permit them just to treat it as a black card. If the tournament organizers make no effort to prevent a U13 from fencing or knowingly permit him to fence, then they are ignoring the USFA rules. In that case, I would expect the USFA to take a much harder line and possibly declare the entire tournament a non-sanctioned event.
Of course you are technically right in everything you say. Never the less it is just as likely that if the U-13 doesn't place/earn a rating and doesn't LOOK out of place no one would ever know or care.
In regards to checking cards, I shouldn't have said cards nobody asks to see cards. At certain clubs there is a very loose attitude about it as they tend to host smaller/low rated events and most faces are familiar. Others are much tighter. As you say, especially with the ruling clarification all should be more vigilant. "I cannot ensure success, I can only endeavor to deserve it" - Capt. John Paul Jones
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you could just pretend to not notice and let them fence. 99% of the time, no one will notice.
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