wires dead at purchase

[MyraTrue]

Long time no post, but I've got a problem and need to know if anyone else has experienced it recently.

I've been armoring for about three years, and it's gotten to the point that I rarely have a bad blade. Then, both the other club armorer and I had a slew of blades that were just... dead. We were lucky when one out of four worked, either foil or epee. We wondered if it was that we were buying wires from Physical Chess- German wires, but I'm not sure if they were German or German "make". So we purchased about 15 Uhlmann wires from the Fencing Post, and again, every single blade is dead.

We tested the remaining 7 wires, and brand new, every single one is dead in both lines on the multimeter, which tests valid on other wires in older weapons.

Has anyone else experienced bad wires recently? Does anyone have any suggestions? We're trying to get the club ready for Nationals in Clemson and we're in a really bad spot right now.

[Purple Fencer]

The wires themselves had no continuity???

Best guess, whoever put them together didn't properly strip the tip end of the wire prior to crimping the wire to the connectors.

As to how to fix it...Donald? Tim? Bill? This is outta my league.

[Larrison]

Long time no post, but I've got a problem and need to know if anyone else has experienced it recently.

I've been armoring for about three years, and it's gotten to the point that I rarely have a bad blade. Then, both the other club armorer and I had a slew of blades that were just... dead. We were lucky when one out of four worked, either foil or epee. We wondered if it was that we were buying wires from Physical Chess- German wires, but I'm not sure if they were German or German "make". So we purchased about 15 Uhlmann wires from the Fencing Post, and again, every single blade is dead.

We tested the remaining 7 wires, and brand new, every single one is dead in both lines on the multimeter, which tests valid on other wires in older weapons.

Has anyone else experienced bad wires recently? Does anyone have any suggestions? We're trying to get the club ready for Nationals in Clemson and we're in a really bad spot right now.

Umm.. this is going to really sound stupid, but is based upon a true event that happened to me. Did you check to see the battery in the meter is still good? (Seriously -- in a lot of meters, even the analog ones, it checks continuity by sending a small signal down one line and back the other. If your battery is dead, every wire you check will show a break..... In my case I couldn't get a college physics experiement to work no matter what I did, until I had the tech check the meter. He opened it up and the battery had corroded into 2 parts.....)

A wiggy battery which isn't operating up to snuff may be enough to futz up just some readings, but not all, particularly if there's some substantial difference in reistance between 2 types of wires you're testing....(eg, a roll versus a shorter one, or an installed wire versus an uninstalled one...)

[Purple Fencer]

Umm.. this is going to really sound stupid, but is based upon a true event that happened to me. Did you check to see the battery in the meter is still good? (Seriously -- in a lot of meters, even the analog ones, it checks continuity by sending a small signal down one line and back the other. If your battery is dead, every wire you check will show a break..... In my case I couldn't get a college physics experiement to work no matter what I did, until I had the tech check the meter. He opened it up and the battery had corroded into 2 parts.....)

A wiggy battery which isn't operating up to snuff may be enough to futz up just some readings, but not all, particularly if there's some substantial difference in reistance between 2 types of wires you're testing....(eg, a roll versus a shorter one, or an installed wire versus an uninstalled one...)

*reads response....smaks forehead with palm of hand*

That's just stupid enough to be the answer!!!

[Frank Pratt]

*reads response....smaks forehead with palm of hand*

That's just stupid enough to be the answer!!!

That was my first guess. but he said that the old weapons check out. Are the weapons dead on the ohm meter and on the scoring machine? I 've never had a single wire that was dead on arrival, and I've been using only German wires for the past several years. I find it nearly impossible that this many wires were dead from two separate vendors. There must be something else going on here.

[keropie]

(Seriously -- in a lot of meters, even the analog ones, it checks continuity by sending a small signal down one line and back the other. If your battery is dead, every wire you check will show a break..... In my case I couldn't get a college physics experiement to work no matter what I did, until I had the tech check the meter. He opened it up and the battery had corroded into 2 parts.....)

Out of curiosity, how else would one test resistance? I mean, you pretty much have to send a current through the circuit at a 'known' voltage and measure the effective current, and then you know your resistance... I sure can't think of any way to test current/resistance/whatever without SOME sort of electrical current, be it supplied by the meter/test equipment or by the device being tested, and I've got a pretty good idea how much current you'll get out of the weapon itself... <.<

Though it has been awhile, maybe I'm just missing something.

[mrbiggs]

I've gotten 1 or 2 before, but that's out of like 20.

[Purple Fencer]

That was my first guess. but he said that the old weapons check out. Are the weapons dead on the ohm meter and on the scoring machine? I 've never had a single wire that was dead on arrival, and I've been using only German wires for the past several years. I find it nearly impossible that this many wires were dead from two separate vendors. There must be something else going on here.

Well then....let's go back to my first post...possibility that the person to assembled the wires didn't properly strip the wire. There me be some of the inner insulation present that's blocking conductivity, even through the crimp.

It's possible...one of the local HS fencing teams bought about a dozen epees from a vendor (won't say who) and every one of them arrived out of spec. Whoever assembled the weapons did not do the shim test before packaging them, and the team did not have time to test them when they arrived.

I always ensure that weight and shim is passed before I put a wired weapon in the storage tube...and I check them after assembly.

[yeoldearmourer]

MyraTrue I happen to know that you are good armourer I have see your rewires job and you do good work. My suggestion is to go with PBT epee wires
work well in German barrels. I have stared to see bad wires coming in and have switch to using PBT wire Not one problem with them

PS check the batterys and put new ones in which I knew you though of it. The meter could have gone bad as well. I have several meters that I double check with. When in doubt check test equipement

[Fechter1]

Stupid question, but it has to be asked:
Did you account for the exta insulation? German wires tend to have an extra layer of insulation underneath the blue clothy stuff (technical term). That's what tha nice coppery sheen is. To get these wires to conduct, you'll have to sandpaper the ends so that you can see silver (steel wool works as well). I went through 2 wires before I figured that one out myself.

Hope they're not beyond hope...

Edit: dangit... should have read purple's post first... Still, it might clarify his comments.

[Inigo_Montoya]

The wires themselves had no continuity???

Best guess, whoever put them together didn't properly strip the tip end of the wire prior to crimping the wire to the connectors.

As to how to fix it...Donald? Tim? Bill? This is outta my league.

I agree with Purple Fencer that the 2nd layer of insulation of the wire was not removed. Best way to make sure you remove this is by using a small piece of sandpaper.

[Purple Fencer]

I agree with Purple Fencer that the 2nd layer of insulation of the wire was not removed. Best way to make sure you remove this is by using a small piece of sandpaper.

That's why I like the wire Gary Spruil uses....with that nice RED inner insulation, I can tell when it's gone!

It's only in the foil wires right now. but hopefully I'll have my own epee wires out....

My concern wasn;t that Myra wasn;t stripping properly, but that the folk who are putting the wire together aren't paying attention.

[yeoldearmourer]

I can think of one reason that they might be dead that since the German contacts are crimp on instead of being solder that the wire was not strip of it insulation before crimping would cause it to be dead. PBT wire is solder. Knowing Myra the first thing that she would do is to check for the 2nd layer of insulation. The heat of the solder melts the insulation on the wire.

[Purple Fencer]

I can think of one reason that they might be dead that since the German contacts are crimp on instead of being solder that the wire was not strip of it insulation before crimping would cause it to be dead.

As in another thread...I said the same thing in my first post....and this time I wasn;t very wordy!!

[MyraTrue]

Well... I thank you all for your input, and I feel like a real fool. Those of you who brought up the inner layer of insulation are correct. Once you burn + steel wool, they do work. It took going to the old club armorer and playing with them for half an hour.

The thing that puzzles both myself and the other armorer is that we've been taking insulation off the wires the same way for... well... years, so why have these two batches been so different? Now, I'm all up for a better insulated wire, and have had to rewire far too many blades due to the wire being exposed. But I'm curious why this is the first time I've encountered this.

Thanks again for the help!

Cheers,
Myra

[KD5MDK]

That's a curious question, as I've been hearing about doubleinsulated wire for quite some time. Who was your previous supplier, before this Physical Chess order?

Did you get things in order for Nationals?

[MyraTrue]

Thank GOD, things should be in order for nationals. The other armorer put in insane hours last night trying to get things running once we found out what was actually "wrong," so the team should be supplied after all. (We were counting personal weapons and crossing fingers before). I think the old armorer was using Blue Gauntlet, but we had problems with invoices recently, and ended up using another supplier (Physical Chess/Fencing Post).

Then again, the other armorer and I were discussing how we've had a few "miracle" blades recently. They had massively exposed wires, but would still work now. That inner layer of insulation might be why, and when we were hurting for wires, was REALLY appreciated.

Friday is almost here...

[jjefferies]

Well... I thank you all for your input, and I feel like a real fool. Those of you who brought up the inner layer of insulation are correct. Once you burn + steel wool, they do work. It took going to the old club armorer and playing with them for half an hour.

The thing that puzzles both myself and the other armorer is that we've been taking insulation off the wires the same way for... well... years, so why have these two batches been so different? Now, I'm all up for a better insulated wire, and have had to rewire far too many blades due to the wire being exposed. But I'm curious why this is the first time I've encountered this.

On another thread I mentioned that I have gotten a bunch (12) of what was represented to me as german epee wires, which weren't. These also had the german signature of shellac insulation covered by cotton. Problem with them was the plastic cup was shaped poorly and the contacts weren't the usual brass but rather the wires were run through soft metal sleeves and soldered and the actual contact surface was the solder. Bottom line was that I had to rewire three weapons. Returned the other wires.

Why you haven't run into this before is a puzzle but could it be a similar problem where the manufacturer/subcontractor has changed some part of the process? As was commented on in the thread about who makes what anymore, it seems all the major suppliers are running around trying to get the lowest priced subs and we end users are seeing their economies as lowered quality.

[Purple Fencer]

On another thread I mentioned that I have gotten a bunch (12) of what was represented to me as german epee wires, which weren't. These also had the german signature of shellac insulation covered by cotton. Problem with them was the plastic cup was shaped poorly and the contacts weren't the usual brass but rather the wires were run through soft metal sleeves and soldered and the actual contact surface was the solder. Bottom line was that I had to rewire three weapons. Returned the other wires.

Did those have a clear cup and blue wire wrap??? I saw some REALLY bad ones like that a few months back

Why you haven't run into this before is a puzzle but could it be a similar problem where the manufacturer/subcontractor has changed some part of the process? As was commented on in the thread about who makes what anymore, it seems all the major suppliers are running around trying to get the lowest priced subs and we end users are seeing their economies as lowered quality.

From an economic standpoint, I see going to the least expensive place to manufacture....there IS a line between saving pennies and producing crap gear.

I'm going overseason for some of my stuff -- I HAVE to in order to make money -- but I refuse to sacrifice quality for a few pennies on the bottom line. Whoever will be making parts will make them to MY satisfaction....period.