Defining the Product: What are the benefits of fencing?

[Mr Epee]

A good marketing program begins with a definition of the product to be promoted, however, participation in a sport program can be very difficult to define.

“The benefits of a product are everything the consumer derives from the product. … The sport marketer must know what the consumer wants the product to do--benefits--and guide the company toward meeting those demands--utility. The sport company produces a product after learning what the consumer wants” (Pitts & Stotlar, 1996, p. 142)

The core product in sport is defined by the rules of play, equipment, players, and venue.

What consumer needs are being satisfied by the core product of fencing?

What are the benefits of participation?

[sabreur]

Enlightenment, but only if you fence sabre.



On a somewhat more serious note, I'm not sure that you can define the benefits of fencing as though it were a product to be marketed. There are a lot of sports that might lend themselves more to such an approach--racketball or skiing, for instance, where you can come up with a list that probably most participants would agree with.

With fencing, you might start out with fitness benefits (although there are other things that give you better fitness more quickly) or "fun" (but there a lot of things, like racketball, that are a lot more fun, a lot quicker). Or the thrill of competition or the appeal to romantic ideals, blah, blah, blah.

But in my mind, the core benefit of fencing is mastery--mastery of self, of body, of spirit,... oh yeah, and of the opponent as well. That is 1) hard to attain (I agree wholly with the old saw that it takes two lifetimes to master fencing--since I'm in the middle of my second fencing life); and 2) not a benefit that necessarily "sells" well in a marketplace dominated by easy and quick gratification.

MR

[Mr Epee]

As I can recall from my studies:

Primary motivation for sport participation are Self Mastery, Satisfaction of Competitve Desire, and Opportunity for Socialization...

I think there's another one, but I'm missing it for the moment.

Edit: Thanks to Allen for the reminder - the forth commonly recognized motivation is an Outlet for Creativity.

Sabreur has hit one of the primary motivations cleanly on the head... despite his poor choice in subjects to master.

But more specifically, how does fencing (specifically) satisfy these motivations for participation?

[sabreur]

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilber...8141860329.gif

[ViewtifulMisho]

I think the goal of fencing, and with many one-on-one sports, is to find out more about "the zone," whatever that is. It's that higher plane of consciousness, the state of mind that is so rare, so elusive, so fleeting that all we can do is increase the probability of reaching it. But that's something that's pretty hard to market.

[Mr Epee]

And yet the Catholic Church remains one of the richest and most powerful organizations in the world.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

And yet the Catholic Church remains one of the richest and most powerful organizations in the world.

That's actually a pretty interesting observation. Classic martial arts organizations walk a pretty fine line, because they are actually tied to a variety of Eastern religions/philosophies--they emphasize the mental discipline and concentration and meditative aspects, without scaring off their Christian customers by making the overt connection to Taoism or Zen.

Fencing does not have an overt connection to a particular meditative tradition (some of us end up studying Zen fairly seriously because of our fencing experiences, I think). But the self-mastery aspect is actually the part of fencing that is available to most people who take the sport seriously (as opposed to being a successful international competitor). So how do you market that?

Fencing: It'll take you further into the Zone.

Actually has the benefit of emphasizing the reality that it takes hard work and focus to get to be a good fencer.

You could probably mount a fairly decent campaign based on camaraderie and competitive aspects as well, if you had a decent agency working a couple of NACs for imagery and interviews.

MR

[Allen Evans]

One of the the other aspects of fencing that defines it as a product is its conduit for self-expression. Each weapon is unique onto itself. Inside each weapon, there are individual approaches to expertise, and personal styles come out after a few years of play. Most of us who have fenced for a while can look across a NAC and recognise people just by how they get on guard or make an attack (of course, that may be true of raquet ball as well - I never played long enough to get that good).

"You could probably mount a fairly decent campaign based on camaraderie and competitive aspects as well, if you had a decent agency working a couple of NACs for imagery and interviews."

It's always seemed to me that there is a lot of material to work with if one wanted to specifically "sell" fencing, or raise it's profile in the media. A lot of them have been touched on here, and the the club promo CD that the USFA sends out to member clubs has some of the elements of a good approach: personal stories discussing the indivdual mastery of the sport and the individual one-on-one competition.

[chefencer]

In my layman's view of marketing you want to emphasize how cool something is and then propose to the target demographic that they are losers unless they're doing/buying/using said product (better sniff my own breath and juggle tic tacs with my tongue). Fencing could certainly take advantage (in the U.S.) of our cultural obsession with the rugged individualist depending upon his superior personal skills to defeat the forces of evil while maintaining the necessary detached aloofness generally defined as cool - iconography is legion in all media. I would say Tiger Woods/Pete Sampras more than Aggasi personify an individual athlete that fits this mold.

BUT, the thing that has slapped me in my astonished face since my departure from fencing 20 years ago has been the growth (nay, existence) of youth fencing. I hereby sooth that the future of fencing will ride in the captain's chairs of fencing moms' vans watching Shrek 6. In the 80s the idea of 9-12 year olds having a weekly class in the local fencing club and being able to scrimmage other children in a nascent travel league would have been incomprehensible. That this is now happening despite utter resourcelessness is a testament to the sport and the people in it. It is "these happy few" who will push on the local level to get fencing in the Parks and Recs and build the infrastructure so that their kids can fence. Cub Scouting has proven to me that devoted and involved parents are one of the most powerful forces on the planet. That's the demographic that should be developed - forget television, the future is in grass roots and I bet it will grow without tending, but given the right marketing "fertilizer" (I use that quite literally)...

Timeline: 80's Soccer Moms, Italia '90: qualified, USA'94: second round!, '95 MLS inaugurated, France '98: let's try to forget - growing pains?, Korea/Japan '02 should have beaten Germany in the 3rd round!, Germany'06: group of death - we've basically got two A's and we're a B in a pool of 4... we'll see!

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

As I can recall from my studies:

Primary motivation for sport participation are Self Mastery, Satisfaction of Competitve Desire, and Opportunity for Socialization...

Socialization: This is a big one. Not necessarily the reason people start fencing, but for the vast majority of people it is often the reason they keep "fencing". Even if "fencing" in some cases involves puting on their white, and fencing 2 bouts in a 2 hour period. What do they do the rest of the time? They talk, they teach, they wait to go to the clubhouse/bar with the of age fencers. For an individual sport fencing practices/clubs are a community experience. This is hard to market, but also very appealling, in this age which often lacks "community" - "where are the neighborhoods, the family togetherness of yore" blah blah blah... say what you want but it is true.

Satisfaction of Competitive Desire: Fencing's rating system and the X and under tourney system, as flawed as it may be, provides for all levels of fencers the opportunity to compete, and be competitive within a competition setting quickly (sometimes too quickly IMHO). Often young and/or new fencers are at their first tourney within 6 months of beginning. As much as an "E" won at a youth U tourney might be scoffed at it still something that is "won" - not only that it appears on your membership card!

However the sliding scale also allows you to compete against some of the best, even some who are international caliber fencers if you continue with your training (or are willing to pony up to go to the right events). Not many sports can promise that.

Self Mastery: I have played, competitively, many sports and the hardest thing to do in any sport is to control something outside your body. The body can be trained directly and actively and we all "train" our bodies to one degree or another throughout our lives. However much of the challenge of sport derives from integrating "mastery" of the body with "mastery" of another outside object or condition, be it a football, 5 iron and ball, or frisbee. However many sports require the release of the "outside" object giving it up to the vagaries of wind, teammate, etc... in fencing you must maintain mastery of body and sword throughout the competion to succeed. This mastery aspect is rare and exhilirating.

Does anyone remeber those "full contact" golf comercials where they show a guy ready to tee off and suddenly linebackers are running at him? That to me is the essence of fencing. Individual precision performance under pressure from an opponent but with the supporting community of a team sport.

Nothing else I've ever found has quite that same mix, thats why I love this sport!

[edew]

Unfortunately, marketing is about the perception of the product in the minds of the prospective user. Thus, the goal is to use the existing perception and gently modify it so that it's more enticing.

I do agree with the above comments about entering a zone where one utilizes the mind, body, and spirit to master one's own body (and mind and spirit) and the opponent's as well.

But explaining that is very cumbersome.

What I've found when I introduce the sport to people is that they realize it's more physically demanding than expected, that it's a rush to do just a simple action like making a lunge (during a bouting moment, that is), and it's really difficult. Understanding the rules of the game (right of way, on/off targets, etc.) is never a major issue.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

What consumer needs are being satisfied by the core product of fencing?

Looks good on college applications. That's a huge selling point to parents.

[Fencergrl]

Let’s face it. All sports will make you more fit, give you an emotional/ mental boast, provide a social outlet. Many sports already have the advantage of being introduced to kids at an early age through our school system or having professional teams playing them and large corporations supporting them. It’s going to be hard to compete using that angle of marketing.

What I think the “hook” for many people is that it’s different. Okay… it’s stupid to ask you folks “How many people you know who fence?” but ask that question to the average person on the street… chances are they would be surprised people still fence.

It is a cool sport…. in that it’s different. It is also one of the most romanticized through literature and film. It is something that athletes/jocks and non-athletes can do…. That geeky tall kid who can’t play football to save his/ her life…. put a sword in this kid’s hand and we have a serious contender on the strip.

We all know that the fencing that happens in movies is different than what happens on the strip. I have yet to swing from a chandelier while winning against multiple opponents in black, but that is the image that’s out there, so why fight it? Use it! Exploit it!

A big part of why I started fencing is because I have always loved the fencing scenes in movies. My first bout made me stay, but the “Hollywood” view of fencing got me through the door the first time. Looking around at the number of little Darth Vaders in beginner’s classes, I would bet that this is the case with many fencers young and old…

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by edew

Unfortunately, marketing is about the perception of the product in the minds of the prospective user. Thus, the goal is to use the existing perception and gently modify it so that it's more enticing.

Never the less, identifing the ultimately gratifying aspects of any enterprise is the key to that gentle modification of preception, as you eloquently put it. If you tell people what they already know you accomplish less then if you impart some degree of information as well.

Basically most people I know think it is probably fun to hit people with swords, they just don't know the real reasons why it is fun. This is where any marketing begins and as many have pointed out fitness and fun are coming closer together in America's consiousness - and this is a good thing for fencing.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

We all know that the fencing that happens in movies is different than what happens on the strip. I have yet to swing from a chandelier while winning against multiple opponents in black, but that is the image that’s out there, so why fight it? Use it! Exploit it!

A big part of why I started fencing is because I have always loved the fencing scenes in movies. My first bout made me stay, but the “Hollywood” view of fencing got me through the door the first time. Looking around at the number of little Darth Vaders in beginner’s classes, I would bet that this is the case with many fencers young and old…

Look, I know many fencers started as "enamoured with film fencing" wide eyed would be swash bucklers. My dad fenced when I was young though, and I couldn't have been less interested at the time. Maybe I'm the exception but I always thought fencing scenes in movies were clearly scripted and contrived. However, my brother and I found some of my Dad's old swords one VERY boring summer and were play fencing when he came home, more my brothers idea then mine. He took us to see some real fencing and it wasn't until I saw people REALLY fencing that I had any interest in this sport.

IMHO playing to hollywood stereotypes of fencing would only be going after those people who are already likely to try fencing at some point. Which is why I think Edew's point about changing preception (abeit slowly) is the real key.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by RoninX

IMHO playing to hollywood stereotypes of fencing would only be going after those people who are already likely to try fencing at some point. Which is why I think Edew's point about changing preception (abeit slowly) is the real key.

We're on different sides of the fence here. In marketing, you have seconds to make a statement. The easiest and most effective methods are using existing stereotypes. You many not have been affected by those stereotypes, but most fencers and would-be fencer are.

Just look around f-net… look it all the threads, avatar, signatures and references to movies and books relating to Star Wars, Zorro, the 3 Musketeers, etc…. Like it or not, Hollywood and literature has had a huge impact.

Changing our image will come naturally as more people fence, and the average person is explosed to sport fencing.

[RoninX]

Oh, I know and to a certain extent I agree. I have fenced at many clubs over the last decade and as I said, the majority of fencers I know came to their first lesson with idea of flipping swords and disarming opponents after watching a movie. Many have become respectable fencers, some very good, and a few not so good or quit. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a friendly bout opened with "My name is Iniego Montoya..."

Appealling to the hollywood stereotype is a valid (and tried and true method). I just think a little "out of the box" marketing of the sport aspect might go further than some people think.

However, Mr. Epee's original questions where about what consumer needs fencing answers, to get at what should be marketed rather than how it should be marketed. Sorry for the digression.

[shlepzig]

One of the selling points I always profess is how long you can compete at a high level in this sport. It is an exciting fast sport that does not belong solely to the young.

It is not terribly punishing to the knees and joints (not like jogging or basketball or such), and the mental aspects of the game can often make up for any dwindling physical attributes. It is common to see people of some advanced age (whatever you want to consider advanced, I fenced a capable fellow of 78 recently) competing on par with college kids and doing well. There are also strong verterans classes in many areas.

I have also been seeing many fencing families (my own for one). Where father, mother, sons and daughters are fencing and competing together (woe to the parent who must face their child in a DE). I try to sell the fencing moms/dads I meet to take up the sport so they can better understand what their kids are doing.

This is a big selling point for the sport. You don't have to give up being competitive when you get past 25 or 30, for many it is still just begining.

Shlep.