Defining the Product: What are the benefits of fencing?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Ding, and we're back on schedule.

Thank you.

Michael over at Fencing Footage has similar experience with fencing helping him to keep fit vs. other types of "go to the gym and do weights" programs.

Craig

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Craig

Michael over at Fencing Footage has similar experience with fencing helping him to keep fit vs. other types of "go to the gym and do weights" programs.

Craig

That is interesting as even playing other sports and running track I was never motivated to "go to the gym and do weights" until I started fencing. So I guess it can work both ways.

[fencerX]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

The core product in sport is defined by the rules of play, equipment, players, and venue.

What consumer needs are being satisfied by the core product of fencing?

Another interesting question is what major consumer need/desire isn't currently satisfied by the core product of fencing? What is fencing missing that really popular sports have?

To me the answer is obvious.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by fencerX

Another interesting question is what major consumer need/desire isn't currently satisfied by the core product of fencing? What is fencing missing that really popular sports have?

To me the answer is obvious.

Cheerleaders, Clear Masks, and Super Straight Blades?

People participate in other sports because they are marketed better.

Major Sports with mega numbers for participation and viewership are entrenched in socialization.

I look at NASCAR and say "WTF?!?!" - rednecks playing very expensive bumper-cars, at highspeeds, and driving around the most boring tiny oval race tracks in the world.... BUT .... If my grandfather watched NASCAR, my father watched NASCAR, then I probably would be a NASCAR fan and be going psycho crazy about brand loyalty, and beating my wife for purchasing the brand of washing powder that sponsors "my driver's" competitor.

This is the problem at looking at successful popular sports.

[sabreur]

FencerX makes a good point.

If you are doing a marketing study for the product, you basically identify the features of the product, and study the potential market to identify those needs that your product provides that are not currently being met by another product, or are being met poorly. I.e., what is unique or superior about your product that the market wants.

It seems to me that weight loss/control and maintaining a satisfactory level of fitness are NOT features of fencing that would help market it--there are other "products" on the market that are directly designed to meet the needs of these market segments.

Again, the starting point has to be taking a hard, unbiased look at the sport and determining what specific features make it unique and appealing, then identifying segments of the overall market for sports that would be interested in those features.

I am afraid fencing has a number of barriers to participation:

1. It is not as effective in weight control or fitness development as other products (aerobics, in all its variations, running, exercise machines, etc.) Those of us who fence seriously generally cross-train to build fitness and maintain fighting weight.

2. It is not as effective in strength building as other products currently on the market.

3. It is a very complex and difficult sport to learn to do well, in three different areas--physical competence, tactical competence and understanding of the rules. I would point at racquetball as a sport in which it is considerably easier to build a level of competency and an understanding of the rule that allows recreational play. And most people have some exposure to racquet sports in general, so they start with some basic understanding of what you're trying to do, and often have a basic knowledge of how to hit a ball as well.

4. It is not really a recreational sport, period. You can't just go out to the local playground and get into a "pick-up" fencing bout, like you can in basketball.

5. It is not a sport like baseball, football or basketball where a large percentage of the population has a basic understanding of the rules and a long-term exposure to the game.

6. It requires very specialized and relatively expensive equipment and facilities to train--and the facilities (in comparison to many competing products) are not widely available.

7. It generally requires a fairly competent level of coaching.

8. It requires a fairly competent partner to train, and although it may have a social aspect to it, it is not nearly as social a sport as softball or golf, for instance.

Fencers, because they love the sport so much, tend to be blind to the barriers to participation--they have already overcome them. But if you are trying to come up with a rational marketing plan, you have to see the sport as someone who is looking for a new sport/hobby/recreational pursuit would see it, and how they would view it in comparison to competing products.

MR

[lindajdunn]

People don't buy Hummers for transportation nor do they usually buy designer clothing to wear around the house. Given that fencing is expensive and difficult difficult to learn, maybe we should just play to what would normally be a disadvantage.

The cool people fence. Why? Because it's expensive and it's difficult and if you can manage to do this, it proves you've got money and you're smart.

I didn't say this would make sense.

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by Poulet

I couldn't find this on a quick search of the forums, so I'm sure someone will provide me with a link to where this poll was already held...

How do most people start fencing?

Most of the ones I know started because they watched zorro/3 musketeers/some other stupid "sword-fighting" movie and were inspired to start "real" fencing. Would it be entirely stupid to try to attach fencing to the image of popular fictional characters?

But what got me interested in fencing was seeing a news special on Peter Westbrook sometime around 1984. Either before the Olympics or just after. I think it was on 60 minutes. I thought it looked like the coolest sport (I was probably 13 or 14 at the time, but I still think this). Perhaps the sport needs more media exposure in the form of info/news stories.

[sleepyweasle]

Originally Posted by Poulet

I couldn't find this on a quick search of the forums, so I'm sure someone will provide me with a link to where this poll was already held...

How do most people start fencing?

Most of the ones I know started because they watched zorro/3 musketeers/some other stupid "sword-fighting" movie and were inspired to start "real" fencing. Would it be entirely stupid to try to attach fencing to the image of popular fictional characters?

My older daughter saw a picture of the high school girl's fencing team in the local paper (they had just won the division championships) and said, "I want to do that!"

My younger daughter started fencing when her sister, who was by then the captain of the H.S. team, told her that the team needed a sabreist so she better learn how to fence - or else...

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by sabreur

FencerX makes a good point.

I am afraid fencing has a number of barriers to participation:

1. It is not as effective in weight control or fitness development as other products (aerobics, in all its variations, running, exercise machines, etc.) Those of us who fence seriously generally cross-train to build fitness and maintain fighting weight.

2. It is not as effective in strength building as other products currently on the market.

This isn't a barrier to participation. It's a rejection of the concept that the top point of fencing is it's weight control and fitness benefits. I agree. It is a minor characteristic of the product though.

3. It is a very complex and difficult sport to learn to do well, in three different areas--physical competence, tactical competence and understanding of the rules. I would point at racquetball as a sport in which it is considerably easier to build a level of competency and an understanding of the rule that allows recreational play. And most people have some exposure to racquet sports in general, so they start with some basic understanding of what you're trying to do, and often have a basic knowledge of how to hit a ball as well.

I think this is not actually a barrier. How many kids get exposed to the notion of whacking people with stuff? I would say that the skills required for entry level fencing are less specialised then basketball, hockey, football and baseball.

4. It is not really a recreational sport, period. You can't just go out to the local playground and get into a "pick-up" fencing bout, like you can in basketball.

This is a major barrier. Additionally, you can't fence on your own the way you can go "shoot hoops" or play catch against a wall.

5. It is not a sport like baseball, football or basketball where a large percentage of the population has a basic understanding of the rules and a long-term exposure to the game.

For the more nuanced aspects of the sport, yes. Priority weapons in particular (though try explaining some of the escoteric rules in basketball or football).

6. It requires very specialized and relatively expensive equipment and facilities to train--and the facilities (in comparison to many competing products) are not widely available.

Up here, the comment is almost always "it's cheaper then hockey". It is way less specialised then curling, for instance, and golf.

7. It generally requires a fairly competent level of coaching.

Like all sports where the goal is to get good.

8. It requires a fairly competent partner to train, and although it may have a social aspect to it, it is not nearly as social a sport as softball or golf, for instance.

Absolutely.

I'd add a couple of other barriers to the sport:

1) Fencing isn't cool. Really. It's been identified in North America as a nerdy sport for losers who can't play football.

2) Safety. Because we need so much gear to ensure our safety, there's nothing left to do outside of a training salle.

The major barrier identified here, I think, is the fact that you can't simply "go fence". There is no equipment in the sports store and no pick up game available.

Hope, though, is in the fact that people continue to use all sorts of items to play fence. If there were some way to harnass that, we'd be all set.

James.

[sleepyweasle]

I think one of the biggest, if not the biggest, barrier to popularizing fencing to the masses is problem of non-fencers not understanding the awarding of touches. I've been at so many competitions where people in the crowd (who are motivated to watch the action 'cause it's their kids competing) start out watching a bout avidly but are confused by the calls (esp. in ROW weapons) and eventually stop paying attention (to their OWN KIDS) because they can't tell what's going on. They cheer (or comiserate) at the end of the bout but they spend most of the meets chatting to each other.

Even in the weirdest, most esoteric sports on TV (and I read ESPN is going to start televising dominos!) you can usually figure out what the point of the game is or how a point is scored (with the possible exception of cricket - but maybe that's just me); not so in fencing (not surprising since often there are disagreements between directors, participants & coaches over calls!).

This is what is going to make it really difficult to market fencing. If someone could figure out a way to explain the rules in a simplified manner to the non-fencing public this would be a huge step.

[chefencer]

Slow motion and announcers who know what they're watching would probably help...but "telegenic" opens a messy can from several other threads.

As far as defining the product and the benefits, ask yourself: "Why do you fence?" and answer in as few words as possible, but make them emotive, assertive and universally understood. We need to communicate the passion that we find in our sport to those with no knowledge of the specifics (and no patience to pay attention long enough to listen). Laundry lists of benefits are fine once somebody's interested, but it's emotion that connects, focuses the attention, cuts through the blizzard of stimuli. We need haikus of the thread topic... anyone?

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by chefencer

As far as defining the product and the benefits, ask yourself: "Why do you fence?" and answer in as few words as possible, but make them emotive, assertive and universally understood.

Pure personal pleasure

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm in it for the money.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by sleepyweasle

I think one of the biggest, if not the biggest, barrier to popularizing fencing to the masses is problem of non-fencers not understanding the awarding of touches. I've been at so many competitions where people in the crowd (who are motivated to watch the action 'cause it's their kids competing) start out watching a bout avidly but are confused by the calls (esp. in ROW weapons) and eventually stop paying attention (to their OWN KIDS) because they can't tell what's going on. They cheer (or comiserate) at the end of the bout but they spend most of the meets chatting to each other.

Even in the weirdest, most esoteric sports on TV (and I read ESPN is going to start televising dominos!) you can usually figure out what the point of the game is or how a point is scored (with the possible exception of cricket - but maybe that's just me); not so in fencing (not surprising since often there are disagreements between directors, participants & coaches over calls!).

This is what is going to make it really difficult to market fencing. If someone could figure out a way to explain the rules in a simplified manner to the non-fencing public this would be a huge step.

How hard is it to look at the referee and see which hand was raised to indicate a touch and count on your fingers to five or fifteen? I mean come ON already!

[Poulet]

How hard is it to look at the referee and see which hand was raised to indicate a touch and count on your fingers to five or fifteen? I mean come ON already!

Keeping track of the score is one thing. Figuring out how the score is attained is another entirely.

I'd love to watch some obscure sport with you that you've never seen before and see you somehow completely understand the minutae of how points are scored with your only knowledge of the game being the score.

[Thor the Mighty]

one big problem is that here in america, people need an excuse to do anything, and since so much dicipline, strength and strategy are required in fencing, most people will not pick up a blade and learn how to do it correctly. its not a sport where you can simply pick up the sports related object and play anywhere; you need coaching, practice and above all, integrity. all of which are lacking in the society that i live in. it may be different for other people, thats just how i view it.

in my fencing class in college, people just half ass the whole time, except for a few people who are dead set on improving their game.

[darius]

How hard is it to look at the referee and see which hand was raised to indicate a touch and count on your fingers to five or fifteen? I mean come ON already!

Unless you're the parent who just ran to the concession stand to buy you fencer's kid sister a $10 milkshake, and when you get back, your sabreur is already mid-bout.

The referee doesn't really speak at all, and from what you can tell, he's the concertmaster of the local symphony orchestra in between reffing gigs. If you're lucky, one hand will pop up, which commences the mysterious "arguing phase".

But those big LED numbers? Those are nice and concrete. You can point your video camera at that, capturing Little Johnny's victory for the folks at home. No more will you suffer the embarassment of coming up short when his overworked coach sprints over, asking "Vat ees score?"

I don't even think the problem is about understanding the awarding of touches -- ROW is inherently just a little tricky, and that's fine. But think about the greatest moments in sports; they all have a story to them. That ticking clock, the numbers on the scoreboard, those are the chapters.

I've got no clue whether or not the USFA has the means to get score/time on every strip at every NAC, but from the perspective of a spectator (captive or not), that should be a top priority.

darius

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by darius

I've got no clue whether or not the USFA has the means to get score/time on every strip at every NAC, but from the perspective of a spectator (captive or not), that should be a top priority.

darius

I DEFINITELY agree. At the NAC in Houston I noticed a fews strips with the LCD boxes where the timer was not running/score was not being tallied. What's the point of having boxes capable of that if they're only going to be used to register individual touches? They were, of course, used for the high-profile bouts, though.