Defining the Product: What are the benefits of fencing?

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

As far as what it brings to the topic at hand? Well, if you are looking for benefits of fencing, I would think that a higher percentage of graduation versus other sports would be a plus.

I think you are confusing correlation with cause and effect.

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by sabreur

I think you are confusing correlation with cause and effect.

I'm thinking correlation. Cause in effect would be: I fence, so I'll graduate. Correlation would be: I fence, so I am more likely to graduate. Again, statistics are meaningless without context. My one problem with the report linked in my earlier post is that it doesn't show all the data or specify how it was collected and what parameters were used. But it does give a nice overview of the success rate of the student-athelete compared through different sports.

[chefencer]

Actually, with regards to marketing, who said it was necessary for statistics to have context? That certainly isn't the norm, but it would be refreshing...

Should fencing stoop?

[Poulet]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

I'm thinking correlation. Cause in effect would be: I fence, so I'll graduate. Correlation would be: I fence, so I am more likely to graduate. Again, statistics are meaningless without context. My one problem with the report linked in my earlier post is that it doesn't show all the data or specify how it was collected and what parameters were used. But it does give a nice overview of the success rate of the student-athelete compared through different sports.

No...

Correlation is: I fence because I'm in a certain socio-economic bracket. Being a member of that specific socio-economic bracket also happens to mean that I'm more likely to graduate.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by Poulet

No...

Correlation is: I fence because I'm in a certain socio-economic bracket. Being a member of that specific socio-economic bracket also happens to mean that I'm more likely to graduate.

Right on. BTW... Do people who live in boxes on broadway have a high graduation rate? How interesting

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by Poulet

No...

Correlation is: I fence because I'm in a certain socio-economic bracket. Being a member of that specific socio-economic bracket also happens to mean that I'm more likely to graduate.

Did Peter Westbrook graduate (I honestly don't know)? He was not of the normal socio-economic bracket I believe you are referring to. Statistics never tell the whole story. They are just a snapshot of the overall picture and can't be used in individual situations with any kind of reliability.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by jdoiv

Attachment 1428

shows fencing as the 3rd highest rate for men and second for women

Another thing I noticed from that pair of 18-item lists: of the 14 sports which were listed for both men and women, the women had higher graduation rates in 13, while there was a tie in the last one. Quite a statistical difference.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


A TV ad idea:

3 pairs of fencers, fencing a few seconds in each weapon.
Announcer voice: fencing, the sport for all ages!
1st pair take off their masks, it is Donald Benge and some Y-10 kid.

Announcer voice: fencing, the sport for all people!
2nd pair take off their masks, they are Peter Westbrook and Eric Dew. (counteracting the all-white stereotypes here)

Announcer voice: fencing, the sport for both women and men!
2nd pair take off their masks, they are Sylwia Gruchala and some guy who gets the estrogen cooking. (I am sure that our female f.netters can cast this guy.)

All six stand on a line, turn to the camera, look deep into it, and salute it.

Highlight URL of USFA, which has gotten a working server before the ad airings.


Another thing: In other threads, blame was laid at the feet of USFA for failure to capitalize on Mariel Zagunis´Olympic Gold. Apart from NCAA ad rules, there are two things that have not been mentioned, AFAIK.
1. MZ lives in the wrong country to get attention. USA got olympic golds literally by the dozens. If she had represented a smaller country, a gold in any sport would have gotten a lot of attention. (Here in Sweden, a woman who won the ladies double-trap shooting event ferchrissakes! in 2000 got lots of media attention.)
2. For female athletes, a minimal level (but high!) of sporting success is necessary for media attention. However, once that bar is passed, any extra sporting success, while not bad for the attention, is not by far the only thing that helps. Anna Kournikova was ranked at best #8 in the ladies tennis, but she got much more media attention than many of those who at some time ranked above her. There are plenty of other examples - good, but not champion, female athletes getting much more attention than the champs. Well, what trait do those gals share? Simple: good looks. That is the problem for MZ: she is not, if I try to put it as tactfully as I can while still adhering somewhat to the truth, a beauty.

Life is not fair.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!

Anna Kournikova was ranked at best #8 in the ladies tennis, but she got much more media attention than many of those who at some time ranked above her. There are plenty of other examples - good, but not champion, female athletes getting much more attention than the champs. Well, what trait do those gals share? Simple: good looks. That is the problem for MZ: she is not, if I try to put it as tactfully as I can while still adhering somewhat to the truth, a beauty.

Peter Gustafsson

Probably 90% of the women in the country are not beautiful. Of that percentage, probably 80% could be changed/trained to conform to the current standards for beauty. Whether they would WANT to meet that definiton is another question.

I'm probably going to get into trouble for this but... fencing requires a mask. All of our top women fencers are beautiful when in motion. if you are familiar with Pink's video Stupid Girls, then you can easily see some possibilities with our top female fencers.

Little girls in tutus growing up to be Paris Hilton-like, starve themselves, devlop bulemia, reach middle age and are unhappy with life
Little girls in sabre outfits growing up to fence weekends while developing good paying careers and growing old while continuing to fence. Cut to veterans women's world cup team. Cut to a group of botox-faced older women in tutus doing stupid things in an attempt to reclaim their youth.
Cut back to the little girl who picks up her sabre (because we want the coolest weapon, that's why). En garde, advance, lunge into the camera.

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

Little girls in tutus growing up to be Paris Hilton-like, starve themselves, devlop bulemia, reach middle age and are unhappy with life
Little girls in sabre outfits growing up to fence weekends while developing good paying careers and growing old while continuing to fence. Cut to veterans women's world cup team. Cut to a group of botox-faced older women in tutus doing stupid things in an attempt to reclaim their youth.
Cut back to the little girl who picks up her sabre (because we want the coolest weapon, that's why). En garde, advance, lunge into the camera.

Actually, if they continue with ballet they will almost assuredly gain more muscle tone and flexibility then they would from fencing.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

Actually, if they continue with ballet they will almost assuredly gain more muscle tone and flexibility then they would from fencing.

Flex? Yes, probably. Muscle tone? You haven't been fencing many highly competitive women lately have you?

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by RoninX

Flex? Yes, probably. Muscle tone? You haven't been fencing many highly competitive women lately have you?

I meant over the whole body... muscle tone for fencing is asymetrical, as I'm sure you know. Why do you think football players sometimes take ballet?

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

Why do you think football players sometimes take ballet?

No comment.

James.

[Poulet]

Because they look funny in a tutu.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by TrainingDummy

I meant over the whole body... muscle tone for fencing is asymetrical, as I'm sure you know. Why do you think football players sometimes take ballet?

If all you ever do is walk in a room and put on your white and do footwork, this may be true. However I supplement footwork and bouting the same way that other athlete supplement theit sport related workouts - I run, swim, lift, as much as we kid OROD about his huge arm if you are actually training to be a competitive athlete you shouldn't be havinf "asymetry" issues.

[TrainingDummy]

Originally Posted by RoninX

If all you ever do is walk in a room and put on your white and do footwork, this may be true. However I supplement footwork and bouting the same way that other athlete supplement theit sport related workouts - I run, swim, lift, as much as we kid OROD about his huge arm if you are actually training to be a competitive athlete you shouldn't be havinf "asymetry" issues.

Fair enough. However, I contend that doing JUST ballet is more strenuous physically to more of the body than JUST fencing, at least most of the time. Of course, fencing is competitve and totally freaking rocks, that's why I fence. And it still is definitely a good workout.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

Probably 90% of the women in the country are not beautiful.

Well, I think you are being overly pssimistic there. Anyway, with your stat that still leaves some 14 million beautiful women in the country. A big group to compete against.

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

Of that percentage, probably 80% could be changed/trained to conform to the current standards for beauty.

Not sure if I understand you right (or of you wrote what you meant!) but in that case 0.1 + 0.8*0.9 = 0.82 => 82% of all women could conform to beauty standards. A competition pool of some 130 million, or so.

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

Whether they would WANT to meet that definition is another question.

Well, if they want commercial success as ad faces, it is almost totally necessary. How many non-beatiful sportswomen, with ad success, can you name? If you can think of any off the top of your head, please list them here! Annika Sörenstam (golf) is the exception, not the rule.

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

I'm probably going to get into trouble for this but... fencing requires a mask.

Not to worry, Rene Roch has thought about that when it comes to sabre!

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

All of our top women fencers are beautiful when in motion.

Well, I claim that that is not true for MZ. Granted, I have not seen her in motion except for the TV airing of the OG WS final, but I have seen her face on the web. Remember that ad pictures in print media are still pictures, and that only seldom will people who are not A-grade media darlings make it to TV or movie ads - unless they are totally unknown, and casted with that in mind. MZ fits neither category. Furthermore, remember that we fencers see beauty in motion on the fencing piste when we look at it, but that the 99.99% of the population who are not fencers will mostly see a whirlwind that they can not comprehend.

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

if you are familiar with Pink's video Stupid Girls, then you can easily see some possibilities with our top female fencers.

I never look at music videos, so I can not comment on that.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[lindajdunn]

Not sure if I understand you right (or of you wrote what you meant!) but in that case 0.1 + 0.8*0.9 = 0.82 => 82% of all women could conform to beauty standards. A competition pool of some 130 million, or so.
===================================
My contention is that MZ could have surgery/extreme makeover/bring in the guys from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, etc. to join that pool of beautiful women.

I hadn't paid much attention to her photo but just went to the web site to take a look at it. At first glance, it appears her main disadvantage is that she has a long face and a high forehead. So does Tyra Banks (a model whom most people consider beautiful).

I'm among the pool of average looking women who will never be beautiful and don't care. Thus, I know very little about how to go about fitting the conventions of beauty as defined for an ad campaign. However, I strongly suspect that professionals could accomplish that goal if the subject was willing.

Since you've not seen the Stupid Girls video (which I first saw on CNN, when they were talking about its message and affect upon young girls), I'm at a disadvantage to explain it. I'll note that it begins with a young girl watching television while receiving conflicting messages: (1) be thin, be pretty, be stupid versus (2) be smart, be athletic. The video cuts in and out of stupid girls doing things, a woman struggling to be thin, a woman going under the knife for breast enhancement surgery, etc.

[sabregrrrl]

In this day and age, with all the emphasis on diet pills and "lose weight easily" schemes, we could market fencing as a way to healthily lose pounds while building muscle. I myself lost five dress sizes in about a year by fencing and can now eat just about whatever I want (it's just like being a teenager again--yeah! ) because I fence three times a week.