Seeding Team Events

[Frank Pratt]

How are teams seeded at local team events (a local team tournament or the qulaifers to the Team events at the Summer Nationals?) I found a previous thread that explained the seeding criteria for team events at the Summer Nationals, but I can't find anything in the Rules or the Athlete's Handbook about seeding at non-national events (I have an Ops. Manual, but it's the outdated "2000" model.) I assume the seeding is based on the combined ratings of the team members (e.g. a team with 3 “Es” is seeded below a team with 3 “Ds”,) but how does the formula / algorithm work, exactly?

[fencerbill]

Pretty much like throwing darts. Besides, when classifications are equal, those familiar with the fencers will probably know which team they expect to win, they are number one seed.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

but how does the formula / algorithm work, exactly?

Method I've seen used gives 5 points to an A down to 0 points for a U, total up the points for the top three fencers on the team and you have the team's points.

Of course most team events there are few enough teams that a complete round robin is a viable option, at which point seeding isn't important.

Seeding teams off of individual's classifications is even more prone to irregularities and inconsistencies than seeding individuals from classifications.

-B

[downunder]

at team events that follow an individual event, teams can be seeded off the team members best 3 results in the individual. EnGarde does this very easily.

[DJ Apostrophe]

I use my standard fencer code conversion for engarde (http://www.prisedefer.com/Engarde/Rating_Conversion.htm) with the exception that I seed U fencers as 6000, then in the teams table, you use the option "caculate the teams numbers", it adds the three lowest fencer codes on each team, and you've got a fencer code (misnomer) for the team.

This past Sunday (div I / Sr. Team Quals) I did a little tweaking a few times when some teams near the bottom of the seeding list had identical fencer codes to get the matchups that seemed to work best (i.e. not having ClubX's A team fence ClubX's B and ClubY's A team fence ClubY's B team in the first round, but rather have ClubX's A team fence ClubY's B team and vice versa)... worked out pretty well, and everyone was happy.

yay engarde.

-w

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe

This past Sunday (div I / Sr. Team Quals) I did a little tweaking a few times when some teams near the bottom of the seeding list had identical fencer codes to get the matchups that seemed to work best (i.e. not having ClubX's A team fence ClubX's B and ClubY's A team fence ClubY's B team in the first round, but rather have ClubX's A team fence ClubY's B team and vice versa)... worked out pretty well, and everyone was happy.

I thought that only one team per club was allowed to fence at qualifying events (and at Nationals) these days.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by tbryan

I thought that only one team per club was allowed to fence at qualifying events (and at Nationals) these days.

Only one team per club can qualify for the nationals in each weapon/category. I'm not sure if this prohibits a club from entering more than one team in the Divisional Qualifers, though. Good question.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by tbryan

I thought that only one team per club was allowed to fence at qualifying events (and at Nationals) these days.

Only one may fence at nationals and only the top team from a given club at the qualifier counts towards qualifying, but clubs may enter multiple teams.

If you have 5 clubs, 1 enters 3 teams, 2 enter 2 each, and the last two enter just one each and the results look like:

1) Club1a
2) Club2b
3) Club1c
4) Club4
5) Club2a
6) Club1b
7) Club3a
8) Club5
9) Club3b

Then, for qualification purposes you have 5 clubs entered (so 4 qualifying slots). For ranking for those slots you have the list:
Club1
Club2
Club4
Club3
Club5
The first 4 clubs on that list have qualified.

Of course qualifying is only an issue if you have 5 or more clubs entering teams. 4 or fewer and everyone's getting a slot.

Note: the members of a club's team at the qualifier do not have to be the same as those at Nationals. The club can pick and choose who to have be on the team once it's qualified.

-B

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Poulet

That introduces an interesting possibility: if your club has nothing but crappy fencers, and lots of them, one could inflate the number of qualifying teams by sending as many teams as possible to the qualifier... Then, even if this club's teams finish below all the others, they'd still qualify ?

Note what I wrote. The number of clubs is what determines the number of qualifying slots. Not the number of teams entered.

What flooding the tournament COULD allow is increased odds of one of your teams scoring a lucky upset and advancing up into qualifying position.

-B

[oso97]

The number of qualifying teams is based upon the number of USFA Clubs represented, not the number of teams at the qualifiers.

[RoninX]

If a club qualifies a team, but some or all of the members that fenced on the qualifying team cannot make it. Can other club members be slotted in the team in their places?

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Poulet

That introduces an interesting possibility: if your club has nothing but crappy fencers, and lots of them, one could inflate the number of qualifying teams by sending as many teams as possible to the qualifier... Then, even if this club's teams finish below all the others, they'd still qualify ?

not true. as Brad pointed out, you determine the number of clubs that qualify based on the number of CLUBS not the number of TEAMS. which is why in his example, despite having 9 teams (which according to the chart is 5 qualifiers), only four qualified due to only having 5 clubs represented.

Additional teams from the same club do NOT inflate the number of qualifying teams.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by RoninX

If a club qualifies a team, but some or all of the members that fenced on the qualifying team cannot make it. Can other club members be slotted in the team in their places?

Yes. you qualify a team from a club, not a collection of fencers. the team at qualifiers needn't have any members in common with the team at nationals.

-m

[KD5MDK]

Yes. The only requirement is that the members of the team that fence at Nationals be from the same club as the team that qualified.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Yes. The only requirement is that the members of the team that fence at Nationals be from the same club as the team that qualified.

And have represented that club in competition in that season prior to Nationals.

-B

[mfp]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

And have represented that club in competition in that season prior to Nationals.

-B

And have an A, B or C classification if the event is Div I team.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by mfp

And have an A, B or C classification if the event is Div I team.

For that matter, be the correct gender. :eyeroll:

-B

[RoninX]

Thanks for the answers. Let me guess, they must also be USFA members and are required to bring multiple sets of working equipment to the piste.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

For that matter, be the correct gender. :eyeroll:

-B

I doubt many divisions will get the gender wrong, however this year I wouldn't be surprised that some will miss the new restriction that Div I qual event team members need to be A, B, C classified

:biggereyeroll:

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by RoninX

Thanks for the answers. Let me guess, they must also be USFA members and are required to bring multiple sets of working equipment to the piste.

...and be U.S. citizens or Permanent Residents.

Originally Posted by mfp

I doubt many divisions will get the gender wrong, however this year I wouldn't be surprised that some will miss the new restriction that Div I qual event team members need to be A, B, C classified

:biggereyeroll:

Good point. The rule was just put into place last month.