About wiring a blade + a lot of Armory Questions

[BySword]

ok, i know these questions may look completely stupid to some of you. But I am really a noob in armory, and I dont have anyone to ask except in here(i have some special situation...). so PLEASE HELP ME!!! PLEASE!

all these questions are referred to epee

1. Is the cotton wire coating on the wire should be stripped or kept when wiring a blade? one of my blade's wire is completely stripped to about half inch from the tip; the other one's not stripped at all except for where it connects the socket. so how much cotton coating should I strip?

2. Can the barrel be re-used? Is threadlocker necessary for keeping the barrel or is it just insurance?

3. How long do you guys to expect the wire on a blade to fail? (in other words, how often do you guys rewire your blade?).

4. what some mistakes are often made during rewiring? What should I specially watch out for?

ok, if anyone is interested in my special situation, you can read on:
I fence only in a high school club, and we dont have an official armorer. No one has sufficient knowledege in that field because the club is farely new. Now some1 in my club had his blade's wire broken and I possibly need to rewire my own blade some time soon so we really need some advices from pros. Besides the club really needs an armorer, so we can fix stuff ourselves. Take the one who has his wire broken as an example, he had to buy a new blade for $xx vs. re-wiring for $x. any advices and help are appreciated.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by BySword

1. Is the cotton wire coating on the wire should be stripped or kept when wiring a blade? one of my blade's wire is completely stripped to about half inch from the tip; the other one's not stripped at all except for where it connects the socket. so how much cotton coating should I strip?

Just strip off the part where you connect it to the socket. A little more is fine because it's protected by the spaghetti wire. Do not strip any more than that, or you will have grounding problems.

Originally Posted by BySword

2. Can the barrel be re-used? Is threadlocker necessary for keeping the barrel or is it just insurance?

The barrel can be re-used until it is dented. Just unscrew it, and screw it on to the new blade. (After being dented, a good armorer will be able to fix it, but that requires a special tool.) The threadlocker is not necessary, but handy for loose barrels.

Originally Posted by BySword

3. How long do you guys to expect the wire on a blade to fail? (in other words, how often do you guys rewire your blade?).

A long time. I don't think I've ever had a wire fail before the blade, barrel, and tip. (But then again, I break stuff alot.)

Originally Posted by BySword

4. what some mistakes are often made during rewiring? What should I specially watch out for?

Test as you go along. When you put the wire in the barrel, make sure the tip and spring can fit in. Make sure the wire conducts electricity. Make sure you don't break the wire while screwing on the barrel.

When you wire, make sure you wire the whole thing. Make sure you don't glue the wire to the tang. Bend the blade when you wire it.

After wiring, be gentle with the wire so you don't break it, and measure it using the spaghetti wire before you cut it.

The most common (and most frustrating) mistake I've made/seen is pinching the wire with the grip or socket. In short, after the blade is wired, be very careful not to crush it when putting the weapon together.

Originally Posted by BySword

ok, if anyone is interested in my special situation, you can read on:
I fence only in a high school club, and we dont have an official armorer. No one has sufficient knowledege in that field because the club is farely new. Now some1 in my club had his blade's wire broken and I possibly need to rewire my own blade some time soon so we really need some advices from pros. Besides the club really needs an armorer, so we can fix stuff ourselves. Take the one who has his wire broken as an example, he had to buy a new blade for $xx vs. re-wiring for $x. any advices and help are appreciated.

I'm mostly self-taught, so here's some good places to go for info, in my experience:
1. This forum-we have some solid armorers on here, and most of these questions have been asked before at some point. Plus, they're friendly and willing to help out.
2. Leonpaul.com has an armoring guide that's very helpful.
3. http://www.webspawner.com/users/mergscare1/index.html, by our very own Mergs

[larkmaj]

I don't mean to sound rude, but you can find basically all of this information by looking around this site. Try the search function, it works wonders.

Taken from a thread on the front page of this section: The Care & Feeding of Weapons, Electrical
written by our own Mergs.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by BySword

ok, i know these questions may look completely stupid to some of you. But I am really a noob in armory, and I dont have anyone to ask except in here(i have some special situation...). so PLEASE HELP ME!!! PLEASE!

all these questions are referred to epee

Actually, your questions apply to foil as well...

1. Is the cotton wire coating on the wire should be stripped or kept when wiring a blade? one of my blade's wire is completely stripped to about half inch from the tip; the other one's not stripped at all except for where it connects the socket. so how much cotton coating should I strip?

The wrap should be removed....you can't get an e;pectrical connectgion of teh cotton or silk is in the way. As far as how MUCH to strip...when I wire a blade, I usually leave about 5-6 inches of extra wire for future repairs...I'll usually strip about 3/4 of that before putting onteh spaghetti tubing. Reason? If the wire breaks at the socket, all you have to di is remove a bit of the spagh and the wire's already stripped...why work harder then you have to when under pressure?

2. Can the barrel be re-used? Is threadlocker necessary for keeping the barrel or is it just insurance?

Unless the barrel's cracked or otherwise overly damaged, they can be reused. A crack is dangerous because if the barrel splits and falls away during an action, you kinda have a spike at the end of the weapon. From an armoery standpoint, a cracked barrel cannot be properly tightened.

A threadlocker is not necessary, but some peopl euse it as an insuance thing.

3. How long do you guys to expect the wire on a blade to fail? (in other words, how often do you guys rewire your blade?).

Depends on several factors...if the wire itself was poorly assembled, you may break it before even gluing it...particularly if the wire's crimped in instead of being soldered. If you don't prep the blade properly,. the wire could pop out and get broken on the first use.

A good quality wire with a good wiring job could last for months in and of itself.

4. what some mistakes are often made during rewiring? What should I specially watch out for? ecial situation, you can read on:
I fence only in a high

You won't live long enough to learn them all, BUT...
Improper or poor blade preparation/cleaning

Failing to remove the spacer ring from inside the barrel (Epee only....and only if the wire had the ring in the first place...some don't)

Failing to put the wire through the bracket hole prior to cranking the parts together

Both wires in one spagh sheath

Failing to align the wires with the notch in the nose of the grip

Failing to straighten the wire prior to doing anything

etc....the longer you do armory, the more mistakes you'll run into.

Are you in the Los Angeles area, by any chance? I'd be happy to show you what I know....sometimes it's best to see an armorer in action insetad of reading it on a discussion board.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by BySword

ok, i know these questions may look completely stupid to some of you. But I am really a noob in armory, and I dont have anyone to ask except in here(i have some special situation...). so PLEASE HELP ME!!! PLEASE!

all these questions are referred to epee

1. Is the cotton wire coating on the wire should be stripped or kept when wiring a blade? one of my blade's wire is completely stripped to about half inch from the tip; the other one's not stripped at all except for where it connects the socket. so how much cotton coating should I strip?

2. Can the barrel be re-used? Is threadlocker necessary for keeping the barrel or is it just insurance?

3. How long do you guys to expect the wire on a blade to fail? (in other words, how often do you guys rewire your blade?).

4. what some mistakes are often made during rewiring? What should I specially watch out for?

ok, if anyone is interested in my special situation, you can read on:
I fence only in a high school club, and we dont have an official armorer. No one has sufficient knowledege in that field because the club is farely new. Now some1 in my club had his blade's wire broken and I possibly need to rewire my own blade some time soon so we really need some advices from pros. Besides the club really needs an armorer, so we can fix stuff ourselves. Take the one who has his wire broken as an example, he had to buy a new blade for $xx vs. re-wiring for $x. any advices and help are appreciated.

1. The wire needs to be insulated all the way to the tip. Only the portion that connects to the socket in the bell should be uinsulated.

2. You can re-use the barrel. I have never needed to use lock-tite; just make sure it's tight enough before you glue down the wire. Lock-tite wouldn't hurt, though.

3. This viares widely, depeding on how well the blade was wired to begin with, what kind of glue was used, and how hard the fencer hits (how much bend he/she puts in the blade.) In general, the wiring job should last until the blade itself breaks. At that point, not even a top-notch wiring job is going to save you from having to start from scratch!

4. Make sure you get enough glue on the wire, but not too much. If there is a lot of exces glue, your opponent might register touches might register if his tip hits the excess glue. If there is too little glue, the wire might pop out over time. Also make sure that the glue does not seep into the barrel threads and/or the threads on the tang. I dry my baldes with the tip pointing up and a piece of tape at the top of the tang (where the front of the bell will be) to prevent glue from flowig into these areas. It's also a good idea to put a slight bend in the balde as the glue dries. Don't use a big bend, though; this might cause the wire to pop out when you starnghten the blade after the glue dries.

IMO, every fencer needs to learn how to build and repair weapons. You don't necessarily have to get formal armourer training, but you need to learn the basics. I have seen plenty of fencers (some of them "C" rated and higher) fall apart under stress when they have equipment problems at tournaments and no one to rely on for repairs. The more you know, the more you can do yourself (especially the night before the tournament.) When things do go wrong, you’ll be far less stressed if you know what you’re doing and can fix the problem quickly.

[BySword]

THANKS A LOT!

sorry guys, i have done quite a bit searches on the forum already, but it was not too fruitful (primary i am new)... I also looked at the Leon Paul ( i have to admit it's really with those 3-D illustrations). But I still have few problems unsolved.

and oh my god, there are just a lot hearted people around these forum!

[BySword]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Are you in the Los Angeles area, by any chance? I'd be happy to show you what I know....sometimes it's best to see an armorer in action insetad of reading it on a discussion board.

errr, i am on the other side of the continent, but thank you. This thread solves/prevents a lot of problems already.

[foilhag]

Here's a trick that worked for me when I used way too much super glue...

When I was still learning how to wire my own blades, I once made the mistake of putting WAY too much super glue. I had glued the blade, and left it to dry. The glue dribbled down into the threads of the tang, making it impossible to put the grip on. The wire was also firmly stuck to the tang.

I soaked paper towel in nail polish remover, wrapped it around the tang, and wrapped the tang/paper towel with a plastic bag. After letting it soak for a while, I could lift off the wire and peel the super glue out of the tang threads.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by foilhag

Here's a trick that worked for me when I used way too much super glue...

When I was still learning how to wire my own blades, I once made the mistake of putting WAY too much super glue. I had glued the blade, and left it to dry. The glue dribbled down into the threads of the tang, making it impossible to put the grip on. The wire was also firmly stuck to the tang.

I soaked paper towel in nail polish remover, wrapped it around the tang, and wrapped the tang/paper towel with a plastic bag. After letting it soak for a while, I could lift off the wire and peel the super glue out of the tang threads.

I used to have no I idea why LeonPaul demostrated that the tang should be taped when when wiring, Now I know why.

Besides, their use of "locknut" bothered me a bit (first i didnt know it's actually loctite/threadlocker, second, I found out what it was but I still never heard of it.). now I know it's now necessary, so I will slack a bit on that.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by BySword

I used to have no I idea why LeonPaul demostrated that the tang should be taped when when wiring, Now I know why.

Besides, their use of "locknut" bothered me a bit (first i didnt know it's actually loctite/threadlocker, second, I found out what it was but I still never heard of it.). now I know it's now necessary, so I will slack a bit on that.

A locknut is also a nut with a nylon insert to hold it in place.

If you're back east, I suggest you go to a tournament that has an armorer present (like a national level one) and ask direct.

Edit....you're in Georgia??? Aren't Nationals in Atlanta? Lordy....you'll find PLENTY of top armorers there!!!

As for the insulation...let me clarify my comment re stripping vs Frank Pratt's ('cause they COULD be confused).

I'm talking about stripping off the actual insulation that's directly on the wire....he's referring to the spaghetti tubing.

He's correct that the spagh MUST cover the wire from the inside of the guard all the way up to the socket....but nothing says you can't strip it like I suggest.

For MrBiggs....I've never had a grounding problem after stripping the wire like I mentioned....could you explain situations where YOU have? Always good to hear so I can avoid the problem and/or alter my own techniques.

[KD5MDK]

I think he's imagining stripping up above the spaghetti, where the wire is running along the blade. That would cause grounding problems. For that matter, so would your idea if you stripped it all the way to the beginning of the spaghetti, if that slide down a little bit and exposed the wire. (Beginning meaning "away from the socket end").

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I think he's imagining stripping up above the spaghetti, where the wire is running along the blade. That would cause grounding problems. For that matter, so would your idea if you stripped it all the way to the beginning of the spaghetti, if that slide down a little bit and exposed the wire. (Beginning meaning "away from the socket end").

As to the first, if I'm understanding you correctly, that would mean you stripped the wire before gluing it in.

As for the 2nd....that's why I only strip about 3/4 back (from the socket toward the guard)...there's still sufficient unstripped wire within the spaghetti. The best way to ensure that there's no exposed wire at the socket end is to put a little bit of the spagh under the nut or washer...it also acts as a strain relief AND cushions the wire a little bit.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I think he's imagining stripping up above the spaghetti, where the wire is running along the blade. That would cause grounding problems. For that matter, so would your idea if you stripped it all the way to the beginning of the spaghetti, if that slide down a little bit and exposed the wire. (Beginning meaning "away from the socket end").

the cotton on my wire of my blade from absolute is stripped all the way...
but then I go back to the absolute site, it says its wire has double insulation. So I assume there is a insulating coating(transparent?) on the wire. but seriously, the wire on my blade looks exactly like a stripped copper wire.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Edit....you're in Georgia??? Aren't Nationals in Atlanta? Lordy....you'll find PLENTY of top armorers there!!!

yea, and I am going to the NAC this summer -- to watch...

and I think I understand what are you guys talking about.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by BySword

the cotton on my wire of my blade from absolute is stripped all the way...
but then I go back to the absolute site, it says its wire has double insulation. So I assume there is a insulating coating(transparent?) on the wire. but seriously, the wire on my blade looks exactly like a stripped copper wire.

Although it can be difficult to see on Absolute wires, there probably was a lacquer coating underneath the cotton when the wire was manufactured. However it would only take one little knick in the insulation to allow a short between the wire and the blade.

BTW - An Eigertek scoring machine will also register a touch even when there is a short in the weapon (not sure about Tripplette machines).

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I think he's imagining stripping up above the spaghetti, where the wire is running along the blade. That would cause grounding problems. For that matter, so would your idea if you stripped it all the way to the beginning of the spaghetti, if that slide down a little bit and exposed the wire. (Beginning meaning "away from the socket end").

that's what I was trying to say. (The first part.) Strip as much as you want, so long as the part touching the blade is insulated.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by BySword

the cotton on my wire of my blade from absolute is stripped all the way...
but then I go back to the absolute site, it says its wire has double insulation. So I assume there is a insulating coating(transparent?) on the wire. but seriously, the wire on my blade looks exactly like a stripped copper wire.

Does the blade work? It won't if there's no insulation.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

The wrap should be removed....you can't get an e;pectrical connectgion of teh cotton or silk is in the way. As far as how MUCH to strip...when I wire a blade, I usually leave about 5-6 inches of extra wire for future repairs...I'll usually strip about 3/4 of that before putting onteh spaghetti tubing. Reason? If the wire breaks at the socket, all you have to di is remove a bit of the spagh and the wire's already stripped...why work harder then you have to when under pressure?

Different people can do it differently for their own reasons. In my opinion, any way you strip the wire almost inevitably leaves it less strong than as manufactured. A reason to strip no more than necessary. But it is equally true that if the wire breaks at the socket, it is much more convenient to have more wire already stripped. My happy medium is to strip back to the minimum length that could reach to the socket. Since I leave about 4 inches of wire for Foil and about 5 inches for Epee, this allows several repairs if the wire breaks at the socket. But if it breaks even shorter you have unadulterated wire to try to splice a short piece back on.

The rule says that the spaghetti must cover the wire right up to the socket, it doesn't say that the original insulation must.

Another difference in practice even among experienced armorers. How many times do you wrap the wire around before the tighten the socket? Advice from Ted Li from so far back I can't remember how long: don't wrap it more than once. His viewpoint: where the wires cross is where the wire is likely to break when the socket is tightened. But there is no way to tell which part of the crossed wires will be the one to break. It can just as easily be the part closer to the spaghetti as the part where it has gone around once. So just get as close as you can to a complete wrap around but don't allow the wires to cross.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Another difference in practice even among experienced armorers. How many times do you wrap the wire around before the tighten the socket? Advice from Ted Li from so far back I can't remember how long: don't wrap it more than once. His viewpoint: where the wires cross is where the wire is likely to break when the socket is tightened. But there is no way to tell which part of the crossed wires will be the one to break. It can just as easily be the part closer to the spaghetti as the part where it has gone around once. So just get as close as you can to a complete wrap around but don't allow the wires to cross.

I'd heard that as well...I wrap about 3/4 around to get as much wire as possible under the nut.

[BySword]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Does the blade work? It won't if there's no insulation.

it works, even the wire popped out once and I glued it back in and it popped out again, I glued it back again... now it works pretty well...