What do you do when you are outgunned?

[Morion]

This weekend I was in a local tournament and found that there was a young girl with a A rating in my pool. I did what I could but she was just too fast and I lost 5-0. Later I was lucky enough to draw her for my first DE. At that point I just smiled and told her I was going to get at least one touch on her. I did better than that and lost 15-3. One of the other people from my club told me I needed to move more, but I'm not sure if I wasn't moving or if she was so fast that it just looked like I was standing still.

Anyway are there any tactics to use to at least save a little face when matched against somebody who is small and fast?

[hpfencing]

What weapon was it in?

[Morion]

D'oh! Foil. I guess the little details help don't they!

[RITFencing]

When I'm clearly outmatched, I tend to open up the distance and fence very conservatively and defensively. My goal there is to keep the score very low and only go try a touch that I think is a sure thing. If I can keep the score low on both sides, then the possible lucky touches (I am an epeeist, after all) begin to count much more heavily and it becomes a little more possible to squeak out an upset. This is hardly a sure fire stratgey, it's just something to bring your chances up from 1% to 3%.

Honestly, what do you do when your opponent outmatches you in every area? You lose. That's the point of training. You don't win or lose many bouts on the strip, you win and lose them in the weeks and months before the competition training your tuchus off.

[Craig]

Anyway are there any tactics to use to at least save a little face when matched against somebody who is small and fast?

Small and fast means they will press and close distance. Their tactics will most likely be attack-remise (use the attack to get into distance, stay in w/remise to take advantage of their height).

To counter this, you have to find ways to keep them out of their optimal distance: stop-hits, extended parries, etc.

If they are just better than you, then go counter to what you should be doing. If nothing else, the randomness of your actions will earn you some points because you're not doing what you're supposed to do, which makes fencing you more difficult.

Craig

[keropie]

The advice my coach has always given me is 'confuse their sense of distance.' As trite as it sound, it really does work fairly well. If you can be where they don't expect you to be, you have a good chance of scoring.

So, for instance: when they attack, open distance greatly so they miss. Don't try and make a riposte, just make them miss. When they push, rapidly open the space (most good fencers will feel the implied threat of control change and stop pushing). If they see you open the space and immediately redouble, perhaps now is the time to step in and parry riposte. Or, at some point randomly instead of opening the space, step in and riposte/counterattack.

Unfortunately, of course, the advice is harder to implement than to type

HTH

[RITFencing]

Also, against better fencers... be unconventional. They know a lot more about fencing than you do and are muchy better at it, so don't fence them

[Fechter1]

Honestly, what do you do when your opponent outmatches you in every area? You lose.

That was great

[RITFencing]

I'd like to thank the academy...

[AndrewH]

I've beaten the best opponents when I'm relaxed and not worried about winning. There's been 2 occasions now when I've gone up against someone light years better than me, and I knew from the start I wasn't going to win. So there was no pressure on me, I just went out there, took risks and tried to get one or two touches. Guess what? I won both times.

[Joe biebel]

I had the "enviable" experience of being "outgunned" recently in a group one tournament. I made it to the round of four, where I met a good, well-known fencer (one of the "A"s) that has consistantly beaten me for a couple of years. I gave it everything I had. I gave it more than I had! I eeked him out in a come-from-behind match. That was a really good feeling. Next I fenced a guy that I watched win a large regional tournament earlier in the year with relative ease. He took out a fencer in the round of four that I have never come close to beating. I was more than a little afraid of him, more afraid of not giving him a good match in front of the remaining people than anything else. During my ten minute break between matches, I mentally reviewed the things I saw him doing to his opponents that were successful. The thing he did the best was "marching" hiding the blade and forcing an attack/counterattack scenario when his opponent ran out of room. I was determined to not get hit with this and to take away that beautiful offense of his. I was successful with false stop hits, PIL's as tactics, and after a brief while he gave up on that tactic. Unfortunately for me, he did everything well. He merely changed tactics and hit me with a variety of offensive and defensive tactics. He defeated me 15-5. Believe it or not, I considered this a "moral" victory. This opponent was bigger, faster, stronger, younger, and technically superior, with excellent tactics and execution. My only saving grace was, I'm better looking (had to throw this in in case he reads this post) Really, even when I was in my twenties, he would have beaten my best efforts. I had a good time. I am a slightly better fencer for the experience.

I look at it this way. There are three basic ways to end a match. Win the match: good feeling for a little while, more likely to teach than learn. Lose the match: screw up, make mistakes, hopefully learn from the experience. Be beaten: the opponent is better or played better than you that day. This last scenario has the potential for the most learning and the most gain. It is only a waste, if you let it be. The tournaments I drive home from with the first place medal, I've almost forgot about it before I get home. The tournaments I don't win stay with me give me the most "food for thought", and obviously teach me the most as a result. I really think it's a win/win/win situation if you let it be.

[jeff]

Excellent points, all - and great post, Joe.

Another way to look at this is to say "what do I want to get from this bout?". Are you trying to win against a superior opponent, or keep the score close to put up a good show or to help your indicators? DIfferent strategies for those cases. Or, take it as a learning opportunity - eg: what happens against this calibre of fencer if I throw a particular attack at him?

[dberke]

Here's a nugget of wisdom that is somewhat related to this topic that I've found quite helpful. This really only applies to tournaments where you don't know the other fencers in your pool, such as at a NAC.

When the pools were posted, I would often look up the ratings of the other people in my pool before reporting to the strip. My theory was that by knowing who the strong fencers were beforehand, I'd have a bit of an idea on how to fence them. (i.e. "He's a U so tactic X will most likely work" or "He's an A so I doubt he'd fall for tactic Y")

One day a clubmate suggested that I not check the ratings - he claimed that if I knew someone was a higher-rated fencer, I would subconsciously accept defeat and not fence to the best of my ability. I think he's right - ever since that, I've stopped checking ratings and my results have improved.

I do check the ratings after the pool is done to see how my assessment of each opponent stacks up to their rating. Several times, I've been surprised by the result - I'd beat a guy and assume he as unrated, when it turns out he was a D, and in other cases I get totally smoked by someone who turned out to be an E that I assumed was a C...

My point is that sometimes if you enter a bout expecting to lose, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In my case, I've just found a way to give myself less information that I can use as an excuse for defeating myself before the match.

Dan

[glowstix]

Also, against better fencers... be unconventional. They know a lot more about fencing than you do and are muchy better at it, so don't fence them

i don't personally agree with this type of strategy. the best thing to do is to remain true to your style and methods. instead of approaching the bout with a "win or lose" mentality, think of it as a learning opportunity. analyse every action this superior fencer makes. see how he sets you up, how he responds/adapts to what you're doing, etc.. take something from the bout to where you're at least a bit better after than you were before. its all about learning. ALL fencing is about learning, there is no end-all fencing bout where you rule the universe if you win.

[Craig]

there is no end-all fencing bout where you rule the universe if you win.

not a highlander fan, I see


My main reason for advocating being unconventional is that if you "fence" against a vastly superior fencer, then you will get beaten, but if you make it a "fight" then you just may have a chance.

By keeping to standard tactics, you are playing into a game your opponent knows and knows better than you. What match up against thier "A" game when you can be unconventional, slightly random, and end up against their "B" or "C" game?

By making the bout "ugly" you encourage your opponent to fence down to your level rather than you trying to fence up to theirs.

It doesn't work against everyone all the time, but it is a way to make upsets occur.

Craig

[shlepzig]

Also, against better fencers... be unconventional. They know a lot more about fencing than you do and are muchy better at it, so don't fence them

I disagree with RITF's sentiment, though it has a ring of truth to it. Erratic fencers are hard to fence. I find trying to fence erratically is really an invitation to make a stupid mistake that leaves me dogmeat for a more experienced fencer.

Along the lines of step one "Dont get hit", and step 2 "Hit the other guy" philosophy. Against a fencer whom is a superior fencer I try to keep a few things in mind.

1. What does he do well, and how I can keep him from employing his best shots?

2. What am I good at? I want to focus on what I do well and generally have a high percentage on. I am less likely to get myself in trouble doing what I know well.

3. Does it look like there are any holes in the opponents game, and does that fit in with what I can do to exploit it.

Basically stick to the basics and try not to get in to trouble.
Shlep

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Have fun.

Make them work for it.

Repeat cliches under breath as many times as necessary.

[jeff]

And sometimes you can wind up being a surprise spoiler and win anyway... which is a LOT of fun.

[ReverseLunge]

If they are just better than you, then go counter to what you should be doing. If nothing else, the randomness of your actions will earn you some points because you're not doing what you're supposed to do, which makes fencing you more difficult.

Craig

When in doubt, counter offensiveness with offensiveness and defensivness with defensiveness.

[glowstix]

not a highlander fan, I see

oh yes, i am indeed a highlander fan..aren't we all?? my problem with your strategy, i suppose, is influenced by the fact that my ex coach stressed proper form and technique so i really couldn't see myself fencing "ugly" or "unconventional". i just think you'd learn more if you fenced your natural game and see how a strong fencer adjusts his game accordingly in response to what you're doing..