What do you do when you are outgunned?

[achilleus]

This weekend I was in a local tournament and found that there was a young girl with a A rating in my pool. I did what I could but she was just too fast and I lost 5-0. Later I was lucky enough to draw her for my first DE. At that point I just smiled and told her I was going to get at least one touch on her. I did better than that and lost 15-3. One of the other people from my club told me I needed to move more, but I'm not sure if I wasn't moving or if she was so fast that it just looked like I was standing still.

Anyway are there any tactics to use to at least save a little face when matched against somebody who is small and fast?

Having had people tell me things like "If I score 1 point off you, I'll be happy' and similar statements before DE bouts, I gotta tell you I hate you.

OK, not you personally, but the attitude and the way you acted.

From my perspective, I go to tournaments to compete and improve, and fencing someone who states that their sole goal is to score 6 or 7 or even 1 touch, is basically admitting defeat, and completely wastes my time. I usually just run at the opponent to get the bout over with as quickly as possible. The person usually goes home happy after scoring more than they hoped for...

That said, my first bit of advice to you, is never, ever, ever accept defeat until the bout is over. I mean, seriously, how can you stage an upset when you tell yourself and your opponent that you're gonna lose before you even hook up? At that point, why bother? Just withdraw, save everybody some time...

Once the bout begins there are a variety of things you can try against faster and shorter opponents.

Use your reach.
Slow the other fencer down, by not moving too much, using PiL and and keeping a big distance.
When the fencer closes, close as well. If you can hit the back great, if not, close enough to stop the action or go by.

Fencing ugly is one strategy, the other side of the coin is that you can try to fence up to your opponent rather than make them fence down to you.

Upsets happen, and with the current timings, and just the nature of sports, anyone can win in any given bout.

[Mr Epee]

Exactly what Ach said... and this.

"To be successful, on the strip, the fencer must always imagine his opponent to have the the exact same level of skill as himself." - Lukovich Istvan

This paraphrase of a hideous translation was brought to you by Mystery Inc.

[Dev]

In that situation (overmatched, severe underdog), a friend of mine once gave me simple but perfect advice: "Go wreck his day."

[Spike327]

Get your fiancee to assault them right before they go on the ice.

I mean... err... grind the tempo of the bout way down. Be thinking during the slower moments, but do it actively (make small threats, press in and out of their distance, every once in a while do something that breaks their tempo or expectations). Hopefully these will allow you to both break up their ability to score quick touches and illuminate possible good actions for you to take (i.e. "Oh, that parry six was kinda wide...").

[smurfette]

This weekend I was in a local tournament and found that there was a young girl with a A rating in my pool.

Would this happen to be a "young girl" whose mommy and daddy own a fencing club in AZ, and whose last name begins with an M?

[Dr. Pfleschbach]

One day a clubmate suggested that I not check the ratings - he claimed that if I knew someone was a higher-rated fencer, I would subconsciously accept defeat and not fence to the best of my ability. I think he's right - ever since that, I've stopped checking ratings and my results have improved.


Dan

I think your clubmate's theory is basically correct, except for me it is backwards. As a mid level fencer (B rated veteran) I relish the opportunity to try to defeat an elite opponent. I'm one of those unrealistic optimists who generally goes into the bout feeling like I have a shot at winning, and though it most often turns out that I don't beat the top rated guys, I'm determined to make them respect me and make them sweat to earn their victory. If I get my ass handed to me on a platter I try to figure out a way to beat them the next time (or the time after that) and I pay very close attention to their technique, tactics and strategy so I can learn how to improve my own fencing. I would much rather fence an opponent who is better than me, because I fence my best against them. It's a scenario where I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

It's the lower level fencers that I'm better off not knowing about. I tend to get complacent with them, so it's better if I just assume they're good until I find out otherwise.

[sabreur]

I think the answer to this depends a bit on which weapon you fence.

As I've posted before, in sabre, if your opponent can go backwards faster than you can go forwards, AND change tempo while they're doing it, you're screwed.

That being said, there are a lot of things you can do. The first thing is to have no fear and fight for every point. In sabre, it is often useful to try to collapse the distance--someone who is young and fast and trains all the time has a huge advantage at long distance--fencing at medium or close distance negates some of their speed and gives you a chance to use technical skills, tempo and bladework.

One thing that sometimes works is to make a false attack, short, then hold your ground and try a pris de fer or counter-attack--quick opponents will expect that you are trying to retreat out of distance after a short attack, and sometimes will walk into your pris de fer or counter-attack because they're not paying attention.

Preparing with short, sharp steps off the start line can also let you set up a tempo attack against an opponent that races forward, and is fairly low risk--most of the time, you'll get at least a simultaneous out of the action. Repeated simultaneous attacks can frustrate the faster opponent, tire them out and lead them to making mistakes.

It really comes down to being mentally tough and fighting as hard as you can.

MR

[Gav]

Exactly what Ach said... and this.

"To be successful, on the strip, the fencer must always imagine his opponent to have the the exact same level of skill as himself." - Lukovich Istvan

This paraphrase of a hideous translation was brought to you by Mystery Inc.

Good [badly translated] quote.

I agree with this and Achilleus' post.

Fence to win. Fence to win every point. Who cares whether he's covered in national covers and dripping in medals? You have to want to win - why are you competing without that? What is the point in competing without that?

Now that I got that out of my system.

Do not go onto the piste unprepared. If you know the fencer think about how they fence. if you don't know them then make sure you scout their bouts (if possible). Ask amongst your peers if anyone has experience of them. Develop a game plan. Once you have that in mind mentally rehearse it and then get on that piste and implement it. Raise your game if necessary. Don't forget that circumstances change so be prepared to be adaptable.

[FeatherBlade]

In that situation (overmatched, severe underdog), a friend of mine once gave me simple but perfect advice: "Go wreck his day."

Something similar happened to me, this one fencer encouraged me just by telling me "Don´t be affraid, go get them!" It worked...

Having had people tell me things like "If I score 1 point off you, I'll be happy' and similar statements before DE bouts, I gotta tell you I hate you.

They actually tell you that?! I would feel really stupid saying something like this. (I only think it and then when I get that 1 point, I go for the next one and so on and on... )

[Morion]

Would this happen to be a "young girl" whose mommy and daddy own a fencing club in AZ, and whose last name begins with an M?

Why yes as a matter of fact.

BTW I am practicing this week with a youngster in my club who has a fencing style similar to hers. Hopefully I'll be able to do a bit better if I go up against her in sectionals this weekend.

[RebelFencer]

If you can't win through skill, win through treachery.

[jBirch]

Hey all,

I like what has already been posted in terms of mental preparation. You have to learn to discount everything that came before you in the points and everything still to come and just fence for the next point. Never, ever, ever, ever, give up. Any fencer can get the next point and that's all that matters.

Technically, I always like to see my fencers return to the basics. Too often, when faced with a superior opponent, fencers elevate the complexity and speed of their actions hoping to be "treacherous" or "aggressive" and generally wind up out foxing themselves instead of their opponent.

Think simple, think correct and think slowing down the pace of the bout. If the other fencer takes two steps backward, only take one forward. Don't chase the hit. If the other fencer comes forward, execute a correct attack into their forward movement. Don't retreat.

James.

[RebelFencer]

Hey all,

I like what has already been posted in terms of mental preparation. You have to learn to discount everything that came before you in the points and everything still to come and just fence for the next point. Never, ever, ever, ever, give up. Any fencer can get the next point and that's all that matters.

Technically, I always like to see my fencers return to the basics. Too often, when faced with a superior opponent, fencers elevate the complexity and speed of their actions hoping to be "treacherous" or "aggressive" and generally wind up out foxing themselves instead of their opponent.

Think simple, think correct and think slowing down the pace of the bout. If the other fencer takes two steps backward, only take one forward. Don't chase the hit. If the other fencer comes forward, execute a correct attack into their forward movement. Don't retreat.

James.

"Treachery" basically involves out-thinking your opponent and tricking them into doing something stupid. It has nothing to do with making huge complex actions...at least in regards to how I was using it.

[jBirch]

"Treachery" basically involves out-thinking your opponent and tricking them into doing something stupid. It has nothing to do with making huge complex actions...at least in regards to how I was using it.

RF,

I got where you were going, but what I find that often leads to is fencers who are "upping" the complexity of their tactics in an effort to "trap" their opponent (who is fencing way above their skill level in the first place). This may not be an increase in the complexity of the movement (double disengage, parry, riposte) but rather in the complexity of the traps they try to set. Generally, not a good idea when facing a superior opponent, IMHO.

I prefer my fencers to go in the opposite direction and to simplify the actions when they are faced with a substantially more skilled opponent.

James.

[RebelFencer]

ahh, ok. I probably phrased what I meant wrong, I completely agree with you.

[smurfette]

Why yes as a matter of fact.

She's like a buzzing bee. Don't get distracted by all of the disruption. Just bide your time and wack her. Hard.

[jBirch]

What weapon are we talking about, again?

I was thinking about foil, but it works in epee and sabre too. It's only a valid tactic against fencers who are significantly better then you though and basically just ups the odds to approach 50-50 for any one of your actions to score. Against the big guns, 50-50 is your best shot at winning.

By attacking when they advance, you nullify the distance game, you nullify the weaker fencer's tendency to retreat into a defensive mindset and you leverage any reach differential. Further, the distance at which useful actions can be executed changes substantially for the stronger fencer which can often throw their game off. Yes, you lose ROW on any simple action the opponent does, but you also gain ROW on any compound action they perform.

What ends up happening is that the stronger fencer must set up parry-riposte actions or simple attacks. If they set up parry-riposte actions, they have ceded control of the bout to the weaker fencer. If they go for simple attacks, at best you get 50-50 odds of beating them. Feints, flicks, complex distance games, complex tempo changes, etc.. are all nullified. This puts the game back in the realm of actions that the weaker fencer is comfortable performing and allows them better control over the outcome of the bout.

Just my two cents.

James.

[fencerX]

Do not accept defeat until the bout is over.

When a bush leaguer runs into a big league professional sometimes the bush leaguer's best option is to "play a bush league game, stealing the ball and killing the umpire".

If you can't win through skill, win through treachery.

Treachery *is* a skill. And an especially useful one in fencing.

[Valerio Versace]

[...]
Just my two cents.

James.

Woa...

[glowstix]

the other side of the coin is that you can try to fence up to your opponent rather than make them fence down to you.

exactly.. that is what i really wanted to say all along.