Future of coaching education...

[Allen Evans]

The USFA Coaches College continues to introduce fencers to the foundations of a coaching education, but currently does not have the format to educate large numbers of coaches to the breath of skills they need to get fencers to an elite level, and cannot meet the increasing demand for skilled coaches.

The Pan-American Fencing Academy in Texas is also graduating competitive fencing coaches, but they, too, will probably be unable to fill the demand for skilled coaches.

What is the future of coaching education in the United States?

[RITFencing]

I think at this point the future of coaching education in america is too hard to predict. While coaches college is not turning out many (if any) elite coaches, it does provide a solid basis for lower level coaches. Where that leads us to in 10 or 20 years is currently anybody's guess.

It may be that in the future more people will attend the level 5 program of coaches college (which entails months of work and a eaching stint at CC, as well as requiring a student on the points list to even get in) and the blackstar seminars that the CC people offer occaisionally. If people are unfamiliar with blackstar, it is a set of seminars/workshops for higher level coaches to get together and exchange ideas. They do not currently run many of them each year, but perhaps as the client base gets larger they will be able to bring in more high level instructors to run these workshops.

[Mr Epee]

Allen, - good thread...

and somewhat related to some things I was reading last night.
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There are essentially two seperate issues.

1. General Instruction
Education and certification of entry level instructors who are capable of functioning at levels of instruction equivalent to the expectations of those participating in multi-sport recreational schools/clubs (places like elementary schools and YMCA). For the most part, this should be developed as a "bonus qualification" for the cv's of Phys Ed/Kinesiology majors. This is an area where competition for jobs can be very stiff, and students are often looking for opportunities to differentiate themselves from the pack. There is also a trend in schools to have the PE instructor administer several niche sports throughout the semester.

It could be administered through a weekend seminar, and requisite exam.

2. Advanced Development
This could possibly be handled through a professional organization.

But, as is generally the case - cream rises over time.

[Mr Epee]

Personally, I think we should try to recruit more former soviets. Signing bonuses could help, too.

In case you didn't notice, there is no more Soviet Union.

There simply isn't an infinite supply of well-trained coaches available for import, and not every eastern coach is a good coach.

Also, many of the eastern fencing countries are working much harder to keep their coaching talent happy at home.

[RITFencing]

Also, I think the big problem for the US competitively isn't a lack of good coaches. We have some very good results internationally at the cadet and junior level (Chinman, Cross, Byerts, etc) but things tend to peter off in senior competition.

I talked with Jesse Schibilia about senior world cups a few months ago, and he said that it becomes impossible to compete with fencers from cuba, korea, italy, or wherever who fence professionally and are able to devote all of their time to training because they get paid to fence. That's the major difference between US and some international fencers; even most of our top fencers train and compete in their spare time whereas some fencers overseas can put in hours upon hours without having to worry about anything else.

[Allen Evans]

Personally, I think we should try to recruit more former soviets. Signing bonuses could help, too.

There was a big rush of quality coaches to the US in the 80's and 90's. I don't think that this level of quality will continue, since the system that produced these coaches is now broken. Smart coaches won't come here to coach, they'll come here to get into real estate. Fencers will get what's left over.

The number of top-level American-trained coaches can be counted on one hand.

Isn't that my point?

[grotto]

I don't think that coaches college is designed to produce elite coaches any more than a university is designed to produce elite graduates. For every elite person, there are 100's if not 1000's of hard working professionals that do a damn good job. If the coaches college produces generally high quality coaches that can teach a large # of fencers to be good competitive athletes, the Elite will show themselves. Another analogy would be the highschool football coach, the college football coach, and the pro coach. There are 100's of excellent highschool coaches bringing up good teams. Of which a handful move up to college. And a select few "elites" make it Pro. All of these coaches are needed at their specific levels.

I think a better way to address this would be to bring some sort of rating system for the coaches that exist, like with the refs. take a test on knowledge, and have a sectional "practicum" where the college profs. evaluate a coach and give suggestions to improve.

I think this would be way more beneficial to coaches at every level. It would also bring coaching levels up and much less variable over the long run.

[oiuyt]

I think a better way to address this would be to bring some sort of rating system for the coaches that exist, like with the refs. take a test on knowledge, and have a sectional "practicum" where the college profs. evaluate a coach and give suggestions to improve.

You mean the way football has such exams?

What? They don't? They just do ad hoc evaluations based on past results, interviews, and word-of-mouth to evaluate coaches. Mmmm.

We don't need a coaches ranking list and exams to sort out the elite coaches. The tests that matter there are the ones that take place in gyms around the country every weekend, in convention centers in second-tier US cities each month, and at world cups throughout the world.

As opposed to who the "best" coaches are. Those tests take place every day in salles, garages, driveways, etc. every day.

-B

[Allen Evans]

I am not concerned about how to evaluate coaches, or who the best coaches are. As Oiuyt says, this happens at every competition across the country. I also understand that the Coaches College program isn't designed to turn out Olympic coaches.

As Mr. Epee points out, the number of high level coaches coming from the old Soviet Union is probably going to dry up soon. Most other countries are working hard to keep their talent close to home.

The USFA is leaning on a hand full of coaches to produce results, and most of these coaches were trained overseas. What happens they're gone?

[HDG]

The USFA is leaning on a hand full of coaches to produce results, and most of these coaches were trained overseas. What happens they're gone?

Are they mentoring future coaches while developing elite fencers?

[seak]

It seems to me that a lot of the elite level soviet trained coaches have basically masters degrees in fencing

As it currently stands right now in the U.S. you can take three one week colleges a year at coaches college. Most people interested in becoming a coach in the U.S. have to work another job hence its a time crunch.

Perhaps the USFA along with an accredited college needs to look into setting up a fencing masters program for people who are interested in making their living at coaching. With funding sources comparable to other masters degree programs.

This would make coaching more of a job option, as opposed to something most people pursue on their extra time for additional money

Just my 1 cent (don't think I'm qualified enough for 2 cents)

[fencerontheline]

The USFA is leaning on a hand full of coaches to produce results, and most of these coaches were trained overseas. What happens they're gone?

Allen,
I don't know what the USFA is planning to promote the development of elite coaches, but I do know what I'm doing.

I'm doing my best to educate myself in order to be the best coach I can be. I try to pick the minds of people who know more than I do, and I'm always reading- whether it be on kinesology, fencing history, psychology, or theory. In the fall, I'm going to begin the pursuit of a degree in some sort of sports education. To understand how people work in terms of their physical nature, will certainly understand how to make them work within a social/technical/conventional framework.

In addition to this, I'm helping to organize a coach's education program (in English) in Italy. Fot this summer, it would be a week long session, but in the future, a longer, bigger program is feasible.There's a 3-month intensive coach's development program(In English) in Hungary, which could possibly serve as a model for an upcoming Italian program...

For the most part, the future of coaches development in the US, is an individual thing. It is almost entirely the coach's responsibility. I hate to sound like a high-strung epeeist, but if you want something done, you should probably do it yourself.

Maybe this will change, and things will be easier here in the US, but nobody should bank on things being any different.

~Mike

[Mr Epee]

It seems to me that a lot of the elite level soviet trained coaches have basically masters degrees in fencing
......
Perhaps the USFA along with an accredited college needs to look into setting up a fencing masters program for people who are interested in making their living at coaching. With funding sources comparable to other masters degree programs.

This partially true... the E. European Masters Degree doesn't exactly translate to the US equivalent... so it's a little difficult to compare. Now that said, most have a degree in kinesiology (several names for this) and the fencing portion is roughly equivalent to a Minor degree.

The problem with the fencing masters program linked to a university is that you really don't need a masters degree to teach fencing at a competent level - that and you face the same problem as the "coaches college" - folks would need to take time out of their lives and relocate. Many people who teach fencing are vital to the fencing in their region. Take them out of the local equation for a couple years (even to go to school) and the program they work in takes a major (sometimes fatal) step backwards.

[Agent_V]

The USFA is leaning on a hand full of coaches to produce results, and most of these coaches were trained overseas. What happens they're gone?

Good question. But I'm not sure that I want to know the its answer. The problem as I see it in the US is that we have very few *serious* long-term competitors. The last time I looked at the Div1 MF points list, there were only 16 people who were of post-college age, of the 57 total. Which is incredibly low, when one realizes that almost all international olympians are older than 22 (as a arbitrary threshold for when people graduate from college in the US). Top-level coaches don't just get taught in a few years, nor do they bubble up from the masses of middling coaches either. Sustained experience with fencing at a high level is what's needed, and with today's fencing culture revolving around teenagers I don't see how this shortage of experience will be ameliorated. I don't mean that good coaches only come from top competitors. Sustained, in-depth experience is what counts, whether from competing, refereeing, or just being insanely fascinated by the sport. Competitive experience just happens to be the more natural method with sports in general.

Alexander

[seak]

The problem with the fencing masters program linked to a university is that you really don't need a masters degree to teach fencing at a competent level - that and you face the same problem as the "coaches college" - folks would need to take time out of their lives and relocate. Many people who teach fencing are vital to the fencing in their region. Take them out of the local equation for a couple years (even to go to school) and the program they work in takes a major (sometimes fatal) step backwards.

Well people who have attained a high level of success do move from on region to another without the region falling to pieces oiuyt for example, went from New England to Mid - Atlantic.

The advantage I think of it being part of some sort of masters program is its something one could get funding for and do at a time in their lives when they would be in school anyways.

Lots of people get a masters degree at some point in their lives, and there are fencers out there (I think) who would do this as their graduate school education with the intention of making their livelihood in fencing, as opposed to getting a masters in say teaching and teaching as thier livelihood with fencing on the side

[tbryan]

I'm doing my best to educate myself in order to be the best coach I can be. I try to pick the minds of people who know more than I do, and I'm always reading....For the most part, the future of coaches development in the US, is an individual thing. It is almost entirely the coach's responsibility. I hate to sound like a high-strung epeeist, but if you want something done, you should probably do it yourself.

Having met Allen, I'd say that this sounds similar to what he's done/already doing.

When he said, "What is the future of coaching education in the United States?", I don't think that he was asking specifically how he becomes a better coach (though I'm sure that he hopes to benefit from whatever education is available). I think that he was trying to start a thread on "The Coaches College is a great start for coaching education in the US, but where do we go from there? What infrastructure do we need to create and support coaches at a higher level? Is there already something underway? Is anyone thinking about how to do this?"

Clearly, you already are.

From the Intro to Coaches College page, we see that the Coaches College was started in 1985. It has grown since then, but perhaps there are needs that it cannot meet. It would be great if this thread could stay away from the "you've just got to teach yourself" and veer toward the "here are needs that the Coaches College cannot meet....let's brainstorm on some ideas for meeting those needs....hey, how do we organize ourselves and maybe get some National Office support for these ideas?"

[Allen Evans]

I think that he was trying to start a thread on "The Coaches College is a great start for coaching education in the US, but where do we go from there? What infrastructure do we need to create and support coaches at a higher level? Is there already something underway? Is anyone thinking about how to do this?"

Alex Beguinet, Ed Richards, Vinnie Bradford, et al, started a great program for the education of coaches. It is still a valuable program, and serving a certain purpose. At this point in its history, however, it is hard to know what to say about Coaches College. Either it has met its goal, and it is now in its "maintenence phase" or it has stalled, and there doesn't seem to be much momentum to change it.

The above quote would have been a much better way to start this thread!

[oiuyt]

Well people who have attained a high level of success do move from on region to another without the region falling to pieces oiuyt for example, went from New England to Mid - Atlantic.

I am far from an elite coach. Additionally I had little to do with the survival of NE Div, which was strong and growing before I ever started fencing (in the Mid-Atlantic, incidently).

Many parts of the country are currently held together by a single lynchpin club. Even more clubs are currently held together by a single lynchpin leader/coach/whatever. Pull the lynchpin and the organization dependent on it either VERY quickly finds a replacement or it falls apart. There are also many parts of the country and clubs that are not so dependent on a single individual.

-B

[seak]

I am far from an elite coach. Additionally I had little to do with the survival of NE Div, which was strong and growing before I ever started fencing (in the Mid-Atlantic, incidently).

Many parts of the country are currently held together by a single lynchpin club. Even more clubs are currently held together by a single lynchpin leader/coach/whatever. Pull the lynchpin and the organization dependent on it either VERY quickly finds a replacement or it falls apart. There are also many parts of the country and clubs that are not so dependent on a single individual.

-B

: ) I was merely providing an easy example of people who relativly involved in the management of a region and the area they moved from still manages to survive

There may be many areas of the country where one person holds it together, though in my limitted experience with cap div we've always managed to bumble along

Anyways I was more seeing the educational coaches thing for people looking to get started more then people who were already entrenched i.e. people (like me) who recently graduated from college and are intereested in coaching. Except they actually have real fencing experience

[seak]

hrrrm ok, maybe I'm confused here but I was more thinking the question was how to develop elite coaches. If you're already an elite coach you wouldn't really need to be developed into one

Also I was thinking of the masters thing more for people who haven't established themselves then for people who already had. Hence the best coach in the area wouldn't leave, but maybe one of his students who wanted to get into coaching would