ok...bad ref calls, bad rule "interpretations", and other problems

[the reluctant fencer]

ok so since I used to be very competitive a few years ago I have seen my share of bad calls and so has everyone else. But what I have problems with is when you protest the Ref's decision the bout comity has ruled in the ref's favor even though you are right. I had an incident a few years ago where I was in a difficult DE bout and the opponet was having "trouble" with the lights in the venue at this particular national event. The fencer, during the 1 min. break, decided to modify his equipment by taking some of the strip's duct-tape and placing it on the OUTSIDE of his mask to block the light from coming into his mask and "bothering" his eyes. The thing was that I was making a lot of mask points on him so I protested before the bout resumed but the ref said it was fine. I was thinking well that could make my tip slide over his mask more easily so I was not going to allow it. well when the bout comity sent their rep to the strip he ruled against me and I lost the point and lost the bout and it was fairly close. I should have protested for the rule of modifying the equipment after it has been tested by the armory which is also illegal. has anyone else had the case where the bout comity ruled against them like they just wanted you to go away? that is what I have had happen several times. I have asked for floor judges and they said that they won't give me any because they don't have the staff to provide...well that just was not true...it seems like when you protest they should have a staff person on call with the rule book to come to the strip and sort through the posibilities of the problem. On all of the times I have protested the bout comity just ruled in favor of the ref like they did not want to spend the time on us and there are better things for them to do. well since we pay soo much for the events and the amount of service has not gone up for the price increase then something is not right...I mean they always say youMUST have your card there for sign in but I have not used it in YEARS and just told them my name...anyone could "sign in" by having a friend just get in line for them if they are late or having problems...
I understand some things will be wrong but for instance if a fencer scores on the floor and the ref calls it as a score why is there no posibility of being able to protest if you even have VIDEO evidence of the blade hitting the ground and the light going off? I have seen that happen to other fencers and we tried to protest with video but it was not allowed...
Just let me know if I am the only one that has had these troubles with the USFA or if there are others.
thanks

[noodle]

in the case of the mask and tape, are we talking epee or sabre?

in the case of the tip hitting the ground, whatever the referee says, goes. the lights are just there to guide them. even if its wrong. the only thing the bout committee can do is not give a ref more bouts, or give them less or less important bouts.

bad refs happen. suck it up and get over it. if you think that you're the only one that has to deal with it, you're sadly mistaken.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

<SNIP>

And breathe.

Paragraph breaks are a REALLY good idea.

Tape to cut glare is not unknown. And very likely had minimal impact on the slickness of the mask surface -- less than, say, a lexan plate. Other than in the sabre situation mentioned by noodle, I'd have to say (without being able to see the exact situation myself) I'd expect the BC to agree with the referee on this one.

Floor judges are absolutely NOT a requirement (other than for finals). Whether or not additional staffing was available, the referee is within his/her rights to refuse to accede to your request.

Most of the time the bout committee is called it is not an appealable decision, but rather an argument over a matter of fact. Unsurprisingly the BC will ALWAYS side with the referee on these issues and it's quite likely that they will express how they feel about your wasting their time.

-B

[the reluctant fencer]

this is epee...and yes once I get typing I forget to leave breaks...
and why is it so that once the ref gives his/her judgement that there can't be an appeal? if you look at a lot of other sports such as the NFL they have an appeal process that has the refs review video. plus there are a lot more refs with that than with fencing so there is a higher probability of thee being a bad call.

I know bad refs happen and I have had things that are understandable happen but for some things if they would just allow some types of appeal where the fencer was more important than the ego of the usfa then that would make the usfa a lot more friendly.
I mean I have had friends come and watch me fence at big tournaments and they saw a bad call but even when I protested the ref's call then and I was judged against that made my friends feel that I was cheated. I know things happen and you have to deal with it but when the spectators don't understand why your opponet is getting a point for your appeal that was just flat-out denied. Then there is no reason to "appeal" since you are NEVER going to have the call over-ruled.

[larkmaj]

The only time you can really appeal is when the referee is misinterpreting/misapplying the rules. In these cases it is clear if the referee made a mistake (at least as clear as the rules are on that particular topic). However, none of the situations you mentioned demonstrated a mistinterpretation of the rules.

[remise]

It happens. I got a yellow card once because when the ref 'weight-tested' my weapon on strip, nothing happened. No lights. I got a second weapon, with the same results. Yellow card.

Turns out the ref forgot to turn on the scoring box.

[the reluctant fencer]

ok well I have had another incident that was a misinterpretation of the rules that I forgot to mention...
I was in a DE bout with a lefty and I was doing close combat a lot but the ref was carding me for "reversal of shoulders" (at the time I was too inexperienced to know to appeal) and I lost several points because of that "rule" that is clearly stated only for foil. I just forgot to mention that. I also lost that bout by the amount of points that I was carded for so I was not happy...that was my first "bad" problem with a ref other than small stuff...

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by remise

It happens. I got a yellow card once because when the ref 'weight-tested' my weapon on strip, nothing happened. No lights. I got a second weapon, with the same results. Yellow card.

Turns out the ref forgot to turn on the scoring box.

Was the card reppealed?

[the reluctant fencer]

well in your case remise the cards should have been removed. I have had that happen before...plus two consecutive yellow cards for the same offense would be a point against you...

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

and why is it so that once the ref gives his/her judgement that there can't be an appeal? <snip>
I know bad refs happen and I have had things that are understandable happen but for some things if they would just allow some types of appeal where the fencer was more important than the ego of the usfa then that would make the usfa a lot more friendly.

These arguments always confuse me. The rulebook states very clearly what can and cannot be appealed - and under what circumstances. The rules also assess penalties when an appeal is not upheld. It is presumed that when a fencer enters a tournament, they agree to abide by the rules, as written. Why the confusion and argument?

[the reluctant fencer]

well sometimes the refs don't apply the rules correctly or enforce them the way they are supposed to be enforced. A lot of fencers go by the NASCAR method of "if you don't get cought you did nothing wrong" and I have seen that first hand.

[RebelFencer]

Why don't you keep complaining? I'm sure that this thread will cast a magic spell of Directing proficiency that will surely blanket the world in a thick fog of correctness.

[the reluctant fencer]

well I am just fed up with all of this coldness toward the competitors. I mean generally event organizers try to make an event as fun as possible but when you are getting unfair rulings then it tends to stop being fun when appeals are useless and refs are generally not going to change their opinionnona ruling. In Epee you work a lot harder for your touches than in foil or sabre and you feel even more slighted when an opponet gets ruled in favor of for something that did not score.
The USFA should be more open to other sources of appeal such as video and bystanders opinions on what happened in a contested touch. But instead the ref is the law and if they make a bad call and you show them in the book the correct rule and they still won't change their opinion that just does not seem fair to the competitors or spectators.

[the reluctant fencer]

I don't want perfect referees...I want referees that know that they aren't perfect and are open to other input.

[KD5MDK]

Bystanders opinions as determiners of statements of fact? I see a nightmare. Just wait till your opponent's spectators outvote yours on what happens.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

I don't want perfect referees...I want referees that know that they aren't perfect and are open to other input.

Why do I get the impression that you can be an insufferable prick on piste? If that's your style, fine. There are many colours in the rainbow. But, you must understand that it can make things difficult for your referee - who is trying to manage the match.

Sometimes how you ask for a correction can be very important. Most referees are very open to feedback after the match - they are not required to suffer insult at the hand of the competitors.

Try getting your ref license and working a few competitions.
It might help your perspective.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

well I am just fed up with all of this coldness toward the competitors. I mean generally event organizers try to make an event as fun as possible but when you are getting unfair rulings then it tends to stop being fun when appeals are useless and refs are generally not going to change their opinionnona ruling. In Epee you work a lot harder for your touches than in foil or sabre and you feel even more slighted when an opponet gets ruled in favor of for something that did not score.
The USFA should be more open to other sources of appeal such as video and bystanders opinions on what happened in a contested touch. But instead the ref is the law and if they make a bad call and you show them in the book the correct rule and they still won't change their opinion that just does not seem fair to the competitors or spectators.

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[dberke]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

well I am just fed up with all of this coldness toward the competitors. I mean generally event organizers try to make an event as fun as possible but when you are getting unfair rulings then it tends to stop being fun when appeals are useless and refs are generally not going to change their opinionnona ruling. In Epee you work a lot harder for your touches than in foil or sabre and you feel even more slighted when an opponet gets ruled in favor of for something that did not score.
The USFA should be more open to other sources of appeal such as video and bystanders opinions on what happened in a contested touch. But instead the ref is the law and if they make a bad call and you show them in the book the correct rule and they still won't change their opinion that just does not seem fair to the competitors or spectators.

You'll need to petition the FIE to enact those changes. If I recall correctly, there was actually some talk of a video system in the last year.

Nevertheless, I would tend to disagree that the FOC and referees running the USFA events are cold towards the competitors. Perhaps what you see as coldness is really just impartiallity.

As others have said, fencers can't appeal the ruling of the referee's interpretation of the action, regardless of how incorrect it may be. That's not just the situation at USFA national-level events - if you're able to get a referee in your local area to change his/her decision after making a call, I would contend that you are dealing with an inexperienced referee.

Every sport has its share of bad calls. It's part of the game, and it's not going to change.

Dan

P.S. Be glad you're not a foilist!

[the reluctant fencer]

well idn't mean to get anyone upset but you all know that sabre bouts take all of 15 seconds for 5 touches and foil is hard because there is soo much off-target and right of way... In Epee you have to attack and cover your entire body... I generally see that Sabre is moving as quickly as you possibly can to get to the opponet. Foil has a lot of rules because of proper "form" to be used...it is the "gentleman's" fencing... that is just my view...

Mr Epee: I am compressing 8 years of fencing experience into one post...And I have been a referee in several local competitions and have been praised for my way of refereeing because I try to take my fencing experience and implement it into my judging. I generally do not listen to any coaches on either side that are obviously with either fencer on strip but I do listen to other coaches not from the same club or state. I like the afterward suggestions and have given them to several great refs. There are MANY Awesome Refs out there but there are that 20% of them...

I don't want to be a pain to the refs but when it comes to a DE bout and my staying in the competition is at stake I will make a noise...there definitely needs to be a true justice system rather than a sided one...I mean imagine if the US courts were always sided to their authorities imagine how fast this nation would go into anarchy...we all know that there are corrupt(or mistaken) authorities out there but you have to live with it because there is not much you can do except change a law with help from non-corrupt authorities.

[remise]

Yes. The card was repealed, once the ref realized the box was off.