ok...bad ref calls, bad rule "interpretations", and other problems

[annacattiva]

There's another possibility which nobody has mentioned, probably because the whole discussion is so silly that it doesn't seem necessary. If you genuinely think that your ref is terrible, unacceptably terrible, send someone to the bout committee, not to appeal, but to ask that the ref be observed.

As someone mentioned at the beginning of this wonderful thread, by signing up to fence, you agree to be judged. And your example of the cars... well, if when you got your license, you signed a form saying that you agreed to be ticketed if necessary by police who would sit by the road and estimate your speed... yes, then you have a similar situation. Hopefully the police would be good with estimating speed. Some wouldn't. And sometimes even the good ones might mess up.

I'd say have fun fencing, but it doesn't sound like you will.

[the reluctant fencer]

ok well I won't argue with y'alls p.o.v. ...it is yours and yours alone...
and I asked that duct-tape fencer to put the tape on the inside of his mask but he did not want to.
flame flame flame...I am nno new fencer know-it-all that has been fencing for 3 years...I have been fencing for 8 years now so I know about a lot...or so I think...thee are some new fencers that know a lot more than me... oh well...

[the reluctant fencer]

well I am the reluctant fencer because I got burned out on all of the junk with the USFA...I now do it for fun every once in a while...and I upgraded my C01-BO5 after not fencing at all for several months. just went back cold turkey and earned it...to each his own...

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

well I am the reluctant fencer because I got burned out on all of the junk with the USFA...I now do it for fun every once in a while...and I upgraded my C01-BO5 after not fencing at all for several months. just went back cold turkey and earned it...to each his own...

Usually, A's and B's are more enlightened than to dismiss sabre and foil as being easier than epee.

[Peach]

I have appealed twice, once simply because I needed to make the point for future reference that I had been shafted and once in a friendly local tournament because my referee's call was incorrect as to application of rules and he needed to know it. The first time, as I expected, I was over-ruled. The second time, as I expected, I was upheld.

I have fenced in many many many more tournaments than two in the last eleven years or so in which rules were applied incorrectly, and I didn't bother appealing in any of those situations. You might draw the conclusion that I appeal only when it's a good idea politically, and you just might be right to draw that conclusion

I do, however, get cranky, argumentative, or generally snarky on my own time.

[yeoldearmourer]

Well I know there was a case that a parent was video taping a bout and my wife was the referee and he claim that she made a bad call and demand that she should reverse her call base on the tape. She refused but he carry it to the Bout Committie which refused to, look at it and then he mail off a copy to the FOC. She was up held in her called because the action was a matter of fact not the video tape which was not taken at the same angle she was veiwing the action. A video doesnot catch everything and can you imanage the cost to tape every bout with the way epee is growing.

[KD5MDK]

And make it clear when you think the call was wrong.

[RebelFencer]

Just remind yourself. If one bad call early on is enough to make you lose the bout, then you didn't deserve to win in the first place.

[the reluctant fencer]

yes I understand but generally the more competitive you get the more things cost...FIE everything...and since there are very often coaches recording the bouts from several angles of view of the bout why not make use of it? Refs often listen to a fencer's opponet who says he scored off-strip and make their decision off of that. as several of you know the rulebook says the opponet's opinion is not to be credited as part of the decision making of if a point was off-strip. Ther Ref is supposed to ask the fencer that scored the point if it was on target or not and I have seen too many fencers say "I don't know" and get the point that they did score anulled(sp?) .
A lot of what I have seen is the fencer's lack of knowing the most important rules.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

yes I understand but generally the more competitive you get the more things cost...FIE everything...and since there are very often coaches recording the bouts from several angles of view of the bout why not make use of it? Refs often listen to a fencer's opponet who says he scored off-strip and make their decision off of that. as several of you know the rulebook says the opponet's opinion is not to be credited as part of the decision making of if a point was off-strip. Ther Ref is supposed to ask the fencer that scored the point if it was on target or not and I have seen too many fencers say "I don't know" and get the point that they did score anulled(sp?) .
A lot of what I have seen is the fencer's lack of knowing the most important rules.

Please don't lecture me on how much stuff costs. I hit nearly every tournament in the surrounding area and am hitting all three Div 1 NACs as well as outfitting myself in FIE gear and attending college. Yes it sucks when mistakes are made, but that's something we all just have to deal with.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

as several of you know the rulebook says the opponet's opinion is not to be credited as part of the decision making of if a point was off-strip. Ther Ref is supposed to ask the fencer that scored the point if it was on target or not

Really? Would you like to give a reference for the rule that says a referee should ask an opponent whether he hit on or off target? I would think that it would be mentioned in t.40, t.41, or t.66.

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

and I have seen too many fencers say "I don't know" and get the point that they did score anulled(sp?) .
A lot of what I have seen is the fencer's lack of knowing the most important rules.

Which rules are those? Please list them with references to the rulebook section and number. As a fencer, I'd like to make sure that I know them.

[noodle]

dude, it sounds to me like you have a big problem with sports in general.

i've played a lot of sports in the past and all of them have similar problems to what you're complaining about. the nature of almost all sports is that of having rules and then having people to interpret and apply the rules. some people do it differently. some people do it badly. but it is almost always people doing it, so there will be some inconsistancies.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by jeff

It's only a complex if the belief is delusional! (time to duck and run...)

It's not the ones with duct tape on their heads to watch out for, it's the one with tin-foil hats...

yes, because the tin foil hats "can in fact help the government spy on citizens by amplifying certain key frequency ranges reserved for government use."

this is from the fine folks at MIT-- http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

[Damon Scaggs]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

as several of you know the rulebook says the opponet's opinion is not to be credited as part of the decision making of if a point was off-strip. Ther Ref is supposed to ask the fencer that scored the point if it was on target or not and I have seen too many fencers say "I don't know" and get the point that they did score anulled(sp?) .
A lot of what I have seen is the fencer's lack of knowing the most important rules.

I guess it's time for me to turn in my licenes. I was unaware of such an important rule.

[KD5MDK]

Well, if you don't need it any more, can I have it? I've always wanted to work FIE competitions after my first year of experience...

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

yes, because the tin foil hats "can in fact help the government spy on citizens by amplifying certain key frequency ranges reserved for government use."

this is from the fine folks at MIT-- http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

This is such a thing of beauty... research rules!

[the reluctant fencer]

ok I'll whip out the rulebook today...

[Allen Evans]

And please, while you have it out, read it.

This weekend at a competition a fencer argued with a referee who told the fencer that continuous crossing of the feet was a preparation, and a simple attack had priority. This fencer has been fencing for 8 or 9 years, but somehow had "missed" that rule.

On the same weekend (at the same event) a coach asked me this weekend what the rule was about leaving the end of the strip - he has been out of fencing for a number of years and hadn't read the rule book recently.

Every year, at the start of the season, I re-read the rule book. It's part of my job as a coach and anyone who says that they are a "serious" fencer should do the same. Many of the threads recently on F.net could be easily answered by reading the rules and watching a few good referees (like Mr. Scaggs or "Peach") apply them.

[seak]

I heartily agree on watching an experienced ref apply the rules. I was reffing a local dual meet this weekend and one of the fencers was getting very angry with me:

His opponent was starting his attack coming in with a partly bent arm and then fnishing with an extension and lunge. The fencer who was getting angry was counterattacking into the fencer with the bent arm by straitening his arm and then lunging as the other fencer lunged, however his arm was fully extended first.

He had apparently been told that in order for it to be an attack your arm must be fully extended first. He didn't believe me when I tried to explain the way attacks were being called so I told him to ask some refs down at Clemson this weekend

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by seak

He didn't believe me when I tried to explain the way attacks were being called so I told him to ask some refs down at Clemson this weekend

i'm not sure exactly who will be reffing this weekend, but i'm fairly confident that a few of the coaches will be better authorities than most of the refs there-- off the top of my head, Jon Moss will be there, Oiuyt will be there.... Jon's a 1 in epee and foil and a 2 in sabre (according to Fred), where as Brad's highest rating is a paltry 3 ( ) -- so either should be somewhat of a decent authority....