ok...bad ref calls, bad rule "interpretations", and other problems

[Damon Scaggs]

A few comments from a refereee that has at one point or another made a mistake.

Your suggestion that we should be open to video tape and other sources to appeal calls implies that you think that many calls that currently are appealable should be. This is completely impractical. In a four day weekend at a NAC I make several thousand calls. If every one was appealable that four day competition would take four months. There is a video replay provision in force for the world championships.

There is another side to the original compaint about tape on the mask. Your opponent I'm sure had a beef about the lighting and it making it impossible for him see. He sucked it up and found a solution. In fact this is a common solution to this problem. I've seen it at several competition where the lighting was very bright and sometimes directional. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read of competitors being allowed to do this at a world championship recently where the lighting was a problem. What I'm saying is that I think the sport as a whole has decided that this is acceptable and as such your bout commitee ruled correctly.

In the case you give where you were incorrectly given a card for reversal of the shoulds, the rules give you the right to appeal that. No bout commitee would deny your appeal in this case.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

Then there is no reason to "appeal" since you are NEVER going to have the call over-ruled.

I have certainly had a couple of occasions where I, as the fencer, called for a bout committee ruling and had the referee's incorrect action overturned. "NEVER" is not the appropriate word here. "Rarely", yes, because the VAST majority of the time the fencer is appealling something which cannot be appealled.

Not knowing how the rules work and getting further penalized after a referee's mistake -- whether real or perceived -- by incorrectly appealling is foolish. And that still true even if it DOES convince non-fencing friends that you were robbed.

if you look at a lot of other sports such as the NFL they have an appeal process that has the refs review video.

And even more sports that DON'T have video review. For that matter, in the NFL there are a large number of non-reviewable calls. Certainly I've seen blown calls in the NFL that have dramatically impacted the outcome of the game but were in non-reviewable situations where all the video replay allowed for was the commentators to show the mistake over and over again.

-B

[the reluctant fencer]

yes but they are open to recalls in the NFL rather than saying no...
I don't think video woold or shgould be allowed in pools just because they need to be done as quickly as possible to get to the real fencing...but in the DE's your entire amount of $$$ to come to that event is at stake and just because of a bad call you should not be told to "just deal with it". what if police started pulling people over when they were going the speed limit and were saying "deal with it"? there would be an uproar and somebody would change that...well with fencing people have been told from when they start that you have to deal with whatever the ref says and that is what I was told and thought until Istarted reading the rulebook.
I guessed I should have said RARELY rather than NEVER but I have not seen anyone sucessfully protest even when they were right.

[darius]

but in the DE's your entire amount of $$$ to come to that event is at stake and just because of a bad call you should not be told to "just deal with it".

There are very few bouts where the number of mistakes is greater than the margin of victory. And "just deal with it" is an appropriate response -- if the referee makes a mistake, a smart fencer will work to understand the referee's perspective, and show them what they need to see to get the correct call.

So in that case, you have two options: 1) "Deal with it", adapt, roll with the punches, and give yourself the best possible chance to win. 2) Go back home and train like a madman so you're so much better than the next guy that the referee *can't* lose the bout for you.

Or 3) Kvetch on the internet. If you see concrete results from that, let me know, because I'll start training my fencers to type faster.

darius

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Damon Scaggs

There is another side to the original compaint about tape on the mask. ...... but I thought I read of competitors being allowed to do this at a world championship recently where the lighting was a problem.

Yes, this is has happened recently and historically.

Although, it was much more common historically.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Yes, this is has happened recently and historically.

Although, it was much more common historically.

Used to see it a lot in dry sabre; won't fly now.

[D'Art]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

in the DE's your entire amount of $$$ to come to that event is at stake and just because of a bad call you should not be told to "just deal with it". with fencing people have been told from when they start that you have to deal with whatever the ref says and that is what I was told and thought until Istarted reading the rulebook.

I agree with Darius on this one. If you're good and have half a tactical brain, you'll know that the ref calls things a certain way after a couple of hits (three at the most). After that, if you haven't adapted to the ref's little nuances, then tough crap, you ain't good enough to even be remotely good enough. Not everyone reads things exactly the same way, so obviously they are going to interpret thing differently. This is only human nature, and refs are only human, hence the next three words - deal with it.

[PalmFrond]

I just can't get over an epeeist complaining about refereeing. Thank God you don't fence foil - I'm sure we'd never hear the end of your complaining.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by PalmFrond

I just can't get over an epeeist complaining about refereeing. Thank God you don't fence foil - I'm sure we'd never hear the end of your complaining.

Yeah, but that's because "In Epee you work a lot harder for your touches than in foil or sabre and you feel even more slighted when an opponet gets ruled in favor of for something that did not score."

He wouldn't be complaining as a foil or sabre fencer, afterall, " I generally see that Sabre is moving as quickly as you possibly can to get to the opponet. Foil has a lot of rules because of proper "form" to be used...it is the "gentleman's" fencing... that is just my view..."

-B

[mrbiggs]

First off, I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the "bad" calls presented here. Someone seems to be spoiled from epee...

Second, the problem with appealing calls is that the bout committee is rarely better than the referee. Usually, quality bout comittees will get quality referees, who make correct calls. Referees who would misapply rules are most often at small tournaments where the bout comittee is just some fencer, or even the referee himself. Only bad referees under good bout comittees will be a help.

[PalmFrond]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Yeah, but that's because "In Epee you work a lot harder for your touches than in foil or sabre and you feel even more slighted when an opponet gets ruled in favor of for something that did not score."

LOL. Yes, foilists are known for sitting around, eating peeled grapes and listening to an Abyssinian maid playing a dulcimer. And sabre of course is the old man's weapon.

[peet]

Originally Posted by darius

Or 3) Kvetch on the internet. If you see concrete results from that, let me know, because I'll start training my fencers to type faster.

Holy CR*P! Darius, that's hysterical!

-p

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by PalmFrond

LOL. Yes, foilists are known for sitting around, eating peeled grapes and listening to an Abyssinian maid playing a dulcimer. And sabre of course is the old man's weapon.

Come on, now, don't cast doubts on the epeeists' cherished illusions, they suffer enough from inferiority complexes already.

On topic, why can't the shading tape go on the INside of the mask? Same effect, without being accessible to the opponent's weapon ( one fervently hopes ).

[Inquartata]

Bah, duct tape never "falls off". It's duct tape, for crying out loud!

[oiuyt]

A reasonable argument could be made that it's considerably easier to get proper tape placement on the outside of the mask (allowing the mask to be on the head at the time). Takes less time if you only need to put the tape on once.

-B

[jeff]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Come on, now, don't cast doubts on the epeeists' cherished illusions, they suffer enough from inferiority complexes already.

It's only a complex if the belief is delusional! (time to duck and run...)

It's not the ones with duct tape on their heads to watch out for, it's the one with tin-foil hats...

[peet]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

I guessed I should have said RARELY rather than NEVER but I have not seen anyone sucessfully protest even when they were right.

I've appealed to the BC four times; successfully three. The time my appeal was not successful was at a local tournament where I was the only rated referee in the room, so my appeal fell on inexperienced ears. Oh well.

It helps if you know the rules well, and only appeal things that are appealable. It doesn't matter how "right" you are, if you are appealing something that the rules say you cannot appeal (i.e. a matter of fact), you are unlikely to be successful.

There are precious few sports that provide for a way to overrule an official in a matter of fact. It'd be utter chaos, especially in a sport like fencing, where the number of fact calls is so high. To expand on Damon's point: let's say each ref makes 5000 calls in a weekend tournament. Now let's imagine you have 40 refs in a weekend NAC.

How would you like to manage a tournament with 200,000 opportunities for a formal appeal in four days???

-p

[Inquartata]

Luckily for the running of tournaments, most of us probably have NEVER appealed a call. I know I haven't. I argue them, sometimes vehemently. But in the end what's at stake? A bit of pot metal on a colored ribbon. Referee mistakes, like karma, tend to even out in the long run.

[Allen Evans]

"When it rains, everybody gets wet"

Bruce Milligan to me, at a tournament in 2001

[chiz]

If you don’t know the rules you’re apt to get hosed when you try to argue about them.

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Sometimes how you ask for a correction can be very important. Most referees are very open to feedback after the match - they are not required to suffer insult at the hand of the competitors.

Try getting your ref license and working a few competitions.
It might help your perspective.

IMHO you should be a trained foil and epee referee. You do have a recourse, don’t fence the events you know in advance will be poorly refereed. And after you have learned the rules, gone to class, passed the test and passed the practical go to those events and ply your hard won wisdom. Some day your actions may catch on.

Chiz