Behold! The End of Days are Upon us!

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by Aqua_volans

well. its what is predicted. life on this planet is supported by energy from the sun. go do a google. the sun is not eternal. it will end as all other stars. therefore i find this theory far more believable than some barmy saint suddenly declaring that all convert or be killed by the wrath of god.

You do not know it. Maybe the will be destroyed from an asteroid which can bring a new ice age, or from a comet, or when the sun become super Nova or ice dwarf, and we do not know the time. Everything is in God's will.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by jBirch

And the third possibility based on the rejection of the Christian Axioms: that something else answers.

The subject of much science fiction, and not to be entirely discounted. Remember Clark's Law: "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

All that would tell us is that there is a God. It would go nowhere towards determining whether His motives and ours were aligned, nor towards determining whether He is the only one.

Well, all of those considerations are secondary and could be answered later--maybe. In any case, if whatever-answers communicated to me directly, I'd be inclined to do whatever it/he/she said merely on the consideration that they might do many very bad things to me otherwise!

Can you define those terms for me? I"m unfamiliar with their basic tenats (or if they're even real schools of thought!).

Certainly.

Arianism:

A school of Christian thought that believes that Jesus is not co-eternal with god but is rather a created being. Very holy and specially chosen by god, possibly divine in his own right in some unspecified way, but not god himself nor any part of god--it denys the Trinity, in other words.

This doctrine has at various times been interpreted to say that Jesus was mere man, unaware during his lifetime of his divine destiny or the role he was to play in the salvation of mankind.

A lot of the Germanic barbarians converted to Christianity were Arians, the Lombards and both families of Goths being the most prominant ones.

The doctrine is named for Arius, bishop of Alexandria in the early 4th century whose teachings were condemned as heretical by the 1st Council of Nicea. The Nicean Creed that resulted and which is recited in all Roman, Anglican, and Lutheran catholic churchs was a direct and deliberate response to Arianism.

Manicheanism:

The Manicheans are a branch of Christianity that in some ways moves to the opposite polarity of Arianism and believe that Jesus was never human (as opposed to Arius contention that he was not divine), had no corporal body and therefore never died to be resurrected.

Manicheans also posit two opposite but equally powerful gods, one evil and one good, who eternally struggle for domination in the world of men. All corporal existence is an admixture of these two elements, good and evil. The evil of man resides in the body, while the good of man resides in the soul, and man's personal salvation is achieved by purging the evil from himself through ascetism and self-denial.

One form of Manicheanism holds that the earth was created by Evil God as a trap for the spiritual essences which were created by Good God. Evil God, therefore, acts directly in the world, while Good God remains aloof from the world.

Manicheanism borrows much from Zoroastrianism, a pagan religion which preceded it and which also posited the dual existence of Good God (Ahura Mazda) and Evil God (Ahriman).

Named for Mani, a Persian and Christian who was martyred in the late 3rd Century.

Gnosticism:

Gnosticism is a branch of Christianity that holds that salvation/transcendence is arrived at by inner contemplation and enlightenment directly from God.

It is named for the greek word "gnosis", meaning knowing or to know. Gnostics believe that one can know God directly through mysticism and intuition, and that therefore organized heirarchies and/or priests and/or scriptures are nice but ultimately unnecessary. If one contemplates and meditates correctly, God will reveal Truth directly into the inner soul.

Does it need to be externally verifiable? Ie// you and another experience the same divine event?

That would be nice, but unnecessary, I think.

And I agree, this is a good discussion.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

oh golly gee.
i found the quote, loch. clear as day. Jesus is speaking to the apostles in Mark 13:32 "But about the exact day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heavan, nor the Son, but only the father."
clear enough? God the Father knows, not God the Son, yet.

Thanks. Must have overlooked that one.

do i have to quote the entire Bible for you to show you the quote from Mark 13:32 or something?? most quotes make perfect sense on thier own, or with a little background.

Well, then, what about this one? 1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (bold added) If that makes perfect sense to you, why are you arguing with me?

huh? how can you believe without believing? if you don't believe though, then its like saying you don't need God, and you really do. its like an insult to deny you need to be saved.

Sorry to insult God, then, but I do not believe that I need to be saved. Except from Christian missionaries who knock on my door at 9:00 Saturday morning to ask if I've spoken with Jesus today.

Jesus was called a blasphemer and had to prove himself.

So today Jesus is called irrelevant or a looney and still needs to prove himself. I fail to see the difference.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

was that sarcastic there? cuz if you're episcopalian why are we debating about this? doesn't that mean you believe? or am i totally clueless?

There are Episcopalians and there are Episcopalians. Just because I sit in the church and read the prayers and listen to the sermon doesn't mean I actually buy all of it. And yes, you are totally clueless. [joke]

plus, this way He talks only to those who believe and need to be talked to like that.

So God only speaks to believers? That doesn't make sense. Why doesn't he speak to all of us, and then we'd all believe? Matthew 9:12 "...Those who are well need not a physician, but rather those who are sick."

who are the manacheans?

See my answer to jbirch above.

so you don't think God exists? or are we arguing about nothing? He has proven he exists so many times it's not even funny.

Perhaps, but not to me. John 20:25 "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." He did it for Thomas, why not for me?

[fencingfrog]

Well, all of those considerations are secondary and could be answered later--maybe. In any case, if whatever-answers communicated to me directly, I'd be inclined to do whatever it/he/she said merely on the consideration that they might do many very bad things to me otherwise!

you shouldnt believe just because you dont want to go to hell. yes obviously you want to be saved, but true believing is much more. its also a love of God.

Well, then, what about this one? 1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (bold added) If that makes perfect sense to you, why are you arguing with me?

funny. well, lets just say i disagree with timothy, huh? plus, im not actually talking, im being very quiet over here.

Sorry to insult God, then, but I do not believe that I need to be saved. Except from Christian missionaries who knock on my door at 9:00 Saturday morning to ask if I've spoken with Jesus today.

um, that is an insult. how do you figure that you don't need to be saved? do you want to be unsaved?

So today Jesus is called irrelevant or a looney and still needs to prove himself. I fail to see the difference.

there was no Bible back then to look at for proof. and by "prove himself" i mean He had to disprove them saying He had no authority to forgive sins. and He did. so instead of doing more miracles for everysingle non believer it was recorded.

there's a Bible story about this, actually. Lazarus the beggar is in heavan with Abraham and God and everyone and the rich bad people who ignored/mistreated Lazarus are in hell and can see the happiness they are missing. so they say 'oh please send someone back to tell my brother the Bible is true and to believe and be saved!" and he's told if your brother ignored the past prophets then too bad so sad. he won't believe modern prophets either.

There are Episcopalians and there are Episcopalians. Just because I sit in the church and read the prayers and listen to the sermon doesn't mean I actually buy all of it. And yes, you are totally clueless. [joke]

then can you explain about episcopalianism please? why would you go to mass if you don't believe? do you really and are you just trying to drive me crazy trying to explain miracles and mysteries?

So God only speaks to believers? That doesn't make sense. Why doesn't he speak to all of us, and then we'd all believe? Matthew 9:12 "...Those who are well need not a physician, but rather those who are sick."

no, He speaks to all of us. but not all of us can hear Him talk. again, we're back to faith. it takes faith to hear Him. so if you believe you can hear him. of course there are exceptions. this is just a modern day generality.

Perhaps, but not to me. John 20:25 "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." He did it for Thomas, why not for me?

same as story above.

[Epee_Pox]

I like how the prediction for the present Pope was interpreted to mean he'd be from the order of saint Benedict... and this guy took the name of Benedict. Spooky!



My soul, for the record, is requiring a splash of Talisker. A sudden change from its normal preference for Oban. Either way, ah, rapture.

[fencingfrog]

are you being "funny"?
we will know the end for sure by the antichrist not the pope though. where did you hear that prophesy? I'd like to see it please.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

you shouldnt believe just because you dont want to go to hell.

Yet that is precisely why you say we should believe.

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

you might want to consider the truth, because even if you don't care now, you will care when you are burning in a lake of fire for all of eterinity, separated from the Lord.

Can't you make up your mind?

funny. well, lets just say i disagree with timothy, huh?

Huh? You actually disagree with something in the Bible??

So if it's okay for you to disagree with something in the Bible, why isn't it okay for me to disagree with something--or even a lot of things--in the Bible?

how do you figure that you don't need to be saved? do you want to be unsaved?

I don't need to be saved because I'm not damned. Can't say for you, though...

there was no Bible back then to look at for proof.

Quite the contrary. The books which today are collectively called the "Old Testament" had been around for well over a thousand years by then.

and by "prove himself" i mean He had to disprove them saying He had no authority to forgive sins. and He did.

Actually, he didn't prove he had authority to forgive sins. All he proved was that he could heal cripples. Not the same thing, although one could infer the former from the latter.

there's a Bible story about this, actually. Lazarus the beggar is in heavan with Abraham and God and everyone and the rich bad people who ignored/mistreated Lazarus are in hell and can see the happiness they are missing. so they say 'oh please send someone back to tell my brother the Bible is true and to believe and be saved!" and he's told if your brother ignored the past prophets then too bad so sad. he won't believe modern prophets either.

Read it again. This is not a story of an actual event; it is a parable--a made-up story--that Jesus tells to make a point. (Honestly, I wonder at the caliber of Catholic teaching these days. Send 'em to Sunday school, buy 'em catachisms, and they just chew on the covers...)

And the parable in question doesn't bear on this discussion. It is a cautionary tale about the dangers of ignoring the plight of the less fortunate.

then can you explain about episcopalianism please? why would you go to mass if you don't believe? do you really and are you just trying to drive me crazy trying to explain miracles and mysteries?

Certainly.

Episcopalians are the same as Anglicans, except that we don't look to the Queen of England as head of our church; rather, we have a council of bishops (Greek episkopos="bishop", hence the name Episcopal) as our ruling authority.

We consider ourselves Catholic, just not Roman. We do not acknowledge the authority of the Pope.

We also have diverged somewhat over the centuries in practices and doctrines. For example, our priests can marry and women can be priests.

We only have three sacraments, although the other original four sacraments of the Roman church are considered "sacramental rites", meaning they're special but not quite sacraments.

We believe that the Eucharist is symbolic, not the actual real body and blood of Jesus.

We also just recently consecrated a gay bishop, although there's been quite a bit of controversy and uproar in the church over that one.

We have a Sunday service wherein we commemorate the last supper and receive communion, but we don't call it a "mass."

As for why do I go if I don't believe? I like to listen to the sermon and then argue with the priest afterwards. We both have a good time. I also like to see my friends and catch up on what's been happening during the week. And the donuts--can't forget the donuts. Krispy Kreme...yum!

no, He speaks to all of us. but not all of us can hear Him talk. again, we're back to faith. it takes faith to hear Him. so if you believe you can hear him.

Poppycock. If he was serious about being heard, he'd speak to everybody and in a voice that brooked no doubt.

I think the reason only believers can hear him is because they're the only ones gullible enough to fool themselves into thinking they hear something.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

are you being "funny"?
we will know the end for sure by the antichrist not the pope though. where did you hear that prophesy? I'd like to see it please.

It was in the link originally posted that started this whole thread: http://www.crystalinks.com/papalprophecies.html

9. The Glory of the Olive. The Order of St. Benedict has said this Pope will come from their order. It is interesting that Jesus gave his apocalyptic prophecy about the end of time from the Mount of Olives. This Pope will reign during the beginning of the tribulation Jesus spoke of. The 111th prophesy is "Gloria Olivae" (The Glory of the Olive). The Order of Saint Benedict has claimed that this pope will come from their ranks. Saint Benedict himself prophesied that before the end of the world his Order, known also as the Olivetans, will triumphantly lead the Catholic Church in its fight against evil.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

I think the reason only believers can hear him is because they're the only ones gullible enough to fool themselves into thinking they hear something.

And this is a bad thing, why?

James.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by jBirch

And this is a bad thing, why?

James.

Because it can lead you to do things that might be harmful to others, like...oh, let's say lie to your constituants so you can invade another country to effect a "regime change" of a dictator that you don't like. But of course we all know that could never happen...

Alternatively, it might lead you to spout endlessly and inanely about some end of days interpretation to those who don't share your belief and get really irritated by it.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

Alternatively, it might lead you to spout endlessly and inanely about some end of days interpretation to those who don't share your belief and get really irritated by it.

Yeah, it's really irritating when someone "sees clearly" something that others just do not, and keeps harping on it over and over and over.


Ahem.

[fencingfrog]

Yet that is precisely why you say we should believe.

its just telling you what will happen. and that God isn't kidding when He says you need to be saved or you're going to hell. but believing only to not go to hell is not true believing.

Can't you make up your mind?

see above. its what will happen. but its not the only thing God needs us to believe about.

Huh? You actually disagree with something in the Bible??

im pretty sure that was in book Timothy. aka Tim's letters to the people. aka Tim's opinions. not the Lords specifically.

So if it's okay for you to disagree with something in the Bible, why isn't it okay for me to disagree with something--or even a lot of things--in the Bible?

um, i think what im saying is you're disagreeing with basic beliefs. actually the end time prophecies, but it sorta grew. and that's the Lord, not a disciples' opinions.

I don't need to be saved because I'm not damned. Can't say for you, though...

if im damned you definitly are. actually, we all are. not the point cuz we should be trying to repent and be saved. *sigh* back to the end times again...

Quite the contrary. The books which today are collectively called the "Old Testament" had been around for well over a thousand years by then.

oops. i meant New Testament with Jesus' works in it. He is prophecied about in the OT, but He hadn't come yet. so there was no proof of His divine-ness.

Actually, he didn't prove he had authority to forgive sins. All he proved was that he could heal cripples. Not the same thing, although one could infer the former from the latter.

alright, technicaly no He didn't. cuz its not really a tangible thing. but He pretty much proved it indirectly with the whole 'which is easier to say...' buisness.

Read it again. This is not a story of an actual event; it is a parable--a made-up story--that Jesus tells to make a point. (Honestly, I wonder at the caliber of Catholic teaching these days. Send 'em to Sunday school, buy 'em catachisms, and they just chew on the covers...)

the people weren't real maybe, but the scenario is perfectly real. and i brought that up to show that He doesn't want to do unncesary miracles for everyone. see what He said the brother would do.

Poppycock. If he was serious about being heard, he'd speak to everybody and in a voice that brooked no doubt.

I think the reason only believers can hear him is because they're the only ones gullible enough to fool themselves into thinking they hear something.

back to the gullibility faith issue. again. i can't really say much more, except that its' different and He is talking to all of us. He said He wants to know who will believe on faith alone, and that's what He's doing. in the end time prophecies, it does say He will (or an angel depending on which judgement) speak and all can hear Him. and ditto with the 2 witnesses that will come. they will have obviously God given power.

TO EPEE POX: i meant with the other comment about your soul in rapture and stuff with "funny". thanks for the link though. i sorta forgot about that...

Alternatively, it might lead you to spout endlessly and inanely about some end of days interpretation to those who don't share your belief and get really irritated by it.

hey!

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

Yeah, it's really irritating when someone "sees clearly" something that others just do not, and keeps harping on it over and over and over.


Ahem.

And what's really irritating is when someone asks your opinion, you give it to them, and they then dismiss the answer as being not what you really think.

If people aren't willing to hear the answer, they shouldn't ask the question.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

im pretty sure that was in book Timothy. aka Tim's letters to the people. aka Tim's opinions. not the Lords specifically.

Actually, it's the 1st Letter of St. Paul to Timothy. Most Christian authorities consider Paul to be one of the sources in scripture, equally as influential and important as, say, the book of Daniel or Isaiah.

You really ought to brush up on your scripture before discussing it in a public forum.

um, i think what im saying is you're disagreeing with basic beliefs.

But those "basic beliefs" are rooted in interpretations of scripture. A different interpretation leads to a different basic belief.

i brought that up to show that He doesn't want to do unncesary miracles for everyone.

Define "unnecessary".

back to the gullibility faith issue.

Right. Which is unresolvable. So I think we've pretty muched pumped this well dry.

The bottom line here is: You believe in the End Times. I do not. You believe in Salvation. I do not. You believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I do not. You think you have Faith. I think you are gullible and self-deluded.

Have a nice life.