Behold! The End of Days are Upon us!

[jBirch]

Judgement Day is always described as, well, a day of judgement. But, since we know that the world didn't become in 7 days, why are we supposing that the apocalypse will be an instantenous matter?

James.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Feltan

Did you read this?

10. PETER THE ROMAN - This final Pope will likely be Satan, taking the form of a man named Peter who will gain a worldwide allegiance and adoration. He will be the final antichrist which prophecy students have long foretold. If it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived.

That hardly sounds like a Catholic prophesy.

Regards,
Feltan

I always wondered why the Catholic Church didn't just put in the election rules for Pope: "No one named Peter need apply."

James.

[fencingfrog]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Judgement Day is always described as, well, a day of judgement. But, since we know that the world didn't become in 7 days, why are we supposing that the apocalypse will be an instantenous matter?

judgement day itself is instantaneous as in it happens in 1 day-ish time. before it is the apocalypse aka the tribulation which is 7 years long starting with the antichrist's covenant with israel. its a little more that 7 years if you start counting from the rapture. and how do you know the world wasn't created in 7 days?

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

let me just say this first: i can't and won't force you to believe. but i will try to help you understand. it's your decision. now here goes...

So you're trying to convince him to believe then? Aristotle's rhetoric to the rescue!

the Bible is all about faith. gullibility is believing just about anything a wacko (dont' comment!) tells you. the Bible is about faith because you have to be able to believe without proof. there would be no struggle or free will -which you are fond of- without faith or lack thereof.

God Jesus and the Spirit are the same. i honestly don't know how to explain without God's help. i was skeptical too, now i just believe and know in my heart. i can't explain on my own. and yes, Jesus said in the Bible he knows everything except when the end will be. so yes he did tell me.

Jesus is not God. He is the Son of God and united with Him in the Holy Trinity. He sits at the Right Hand of the Father, but is NOT the Father himself.

Belief is not about unreasoned assertion. It is a core principal of guiding light. You believe that your cause is just, and that the manner you achieve your just goals is equally just. It is not about unquestioning acceptence, it is about firm understanding. You don't just wake up one morning and shout "I BELIEVE!".

You must come to understand that some things are taken as intrinsic principal and allow you to act firm in your convictions. There are right things to do and only when you believe that the right is great can you do them. Else, all you are is a puppet of an author and a narrator. It makes no matter whether you think that the world was created in 7 days, 7 parts or over millions of years. It matters with what you choose to act.

The Bible is not the source of God's Will. It is a journal of men who have met God and as such, tainted with much that is said poorly and unsaid altogether. When God speaks, it's pretty clear and you certainly don't need a guidebook. You do, however, need to resolve to listen.

personally i don't know when the end is coming, but i want to be saved before it's here so i dont' have to endure the tribulation.

The point of Tribulation is that there are trials which will determine your soul's fate. You can't escape them. To think that dogmatic adherence to what you think the rules are (because you read them in a book) will save you from being tested is delusional. God judges and every moment of every day is a tribulation. Some you fail, others you win. But you can't escape them.

For example, testing the core belief that reproducable observation denotes reality is a tribulation of faith. Lochinvar's faith that the scientific method teases truth from life is the belief. You, and your belief in God, are the tribulation of the day. Will Loch win or lose? Only Bohr knows... Tune in next week.

and the Bible is anything but irrational and contradictory. you just have to know how to read it.

The Bible is wildly irrational and contradictory, not to mention clear as mud in the bottom of a swamp. It is what you choose to take from its stories that is good or bad and what you do with that thought that is real.

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, and my soul likes Ardbeg Whisky and Churchill Cigars on a crisp fall evening with a crackling fire, my beautiful wife, a comfy blanket and my dog at my feet, happily gnawing on a bone.

James.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

Poor Velisarios. You live in darkness when you simply accept what is irrational and contradictory just because somebody in a black suit said you should.I don't have a theological question. I'm simply trying to clarify what fencingfrog is asserting.
Irrelevant. What some scientist(s) believes or disbelieve about God has no bearing on this conversation. I'm not talking to scientists, I'm talking to fencingfrog. And now to you. Unless you're a scientist...?Perhaps you could find out who this scientist is, so I could look up the reference?What is true for me is that everyone who says, "I know", doesn't.

Poor Loch,
you said:'You live in darkness when you simply accept what is irrational and contradictory just because somebody in a black suit said you should.'

Yes I live in darkness and I am trying to see the Light.What abouy you?


You said:'Irrelevant. What some scientist(s) believes or disbelieve about God has no bearing on this conversation. I'm not talking to scientists, I'm talking to fencingfrog. And now to you. Unless you're a scientist...?'

Realy? Irrelevant for you. Starnge because you speak about scientist and science so I interapt the conversation because many scientist belive in the existance of God. No I am not scientist. I am computer scientist. I have frients which are scients and they belive in God.

'Perhaps you could find out who this scientist is, so I could look up the reference?'

If you want....

By the way, do not think that I try to convert you or something. We just discuss this matter because we have different opinions. Your believes are personal matter..

Kind regards

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

let me just say this first: i can't and won't force you to believe. but i will try to help you understand.

Oh, I understand what you're saying. I'm just wondering if you understand what you're saying.

gullibility is believing just about anything a wacko (dont' comment!) tells you. the Bible is about faith because you have to be able to believe without proof.

Hm...gullibility = believing, without proof, what anybody tells you, while faith = believing, without proof, what preachers and ministers tell you.
Sorry. Still looks the same from out here. Maybe it's that whole "believing without proof" part that prevents me from seeing how different they really are...

Jesus said in the Bible he knows everything except when the end will be

Really? I don't remember that part. Book/chapter/verse, please?

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without from, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Which raises the question: Where did all the water come from? Did it exist before the creation? But only God existed before creation, so was the water God? Or is God made of water, maybe? Hmm...

and it took them almost 2000 years to reach the answer.

Actually, if we're speaking of the book of Genesis, it took them closer to 4000 years from the time that book was written...but who's counting?

Noah's ark/flood: there is loads of evidence for a huge flood.

There is also evidence of places that didn't have a flood.

all cultures have a flood story. are they all wrong?

Do we know for a fact that they are all talking about the same flood? Or that the flood they're speaking of was the same as Noah's flood?

Anyway, we weren't really talking about Genesis, which is presumably the beginning of the world. We were, rather, talking about the ending of the world. So this whole discussion of waters and floods and such is somewhat off topic.

no one is telling me or Velisarios what to believe. it's not like the middle ages anymore, this is free will and choice to do what's right.

I never said--and never would say--that you have been forced to believe. It is impossible to coerce anyone into believeing something they didn't before the coercian. You can be forced to espouse it, but not to believe it. And before you get the wrong idea, I'm not suggesting that you have been coerced into espousing your position, either. I'm sure you and Velisarios both are speaking openly and of your own free will.

What I am saying is that you have chosen to believe, without proof, what someone else has told you. (See, "gullibility", above.)

Unless, of course, like our estimable President, God speaks to you directly, then another man or woman--maybe several men and/or women, over time--told you that the Judeo-Christian God is the only true God and that the Bible is His Word and that you should believe it. You didn't come to those conclusions on your own.

I'm just wondering why you chose to believe those people and not others who told you something different.

and the Bible is anything but irrational and contradictory. you just have to know how to read it.

Meaning you just have to know which parts to leave out in order for it to make sense.

Lochinvar, we only know because God has told us. and He is right because He is infallible. He is the only truth.

No, that's incorrect. You believe that God has told you because somebody else--priest, mother, whoever--told you that God has told you. Which isn't the same thing at all.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by jBirch

I always wondered why the Catholic Church didn't just put in the election rules for Pope: "No one named Peter need apply."

James.

Why proscribe what you know will not happen?

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Yes I live in darkness and I am trying to see the Light.What abouy you?

Every day, Velisarios, every day.

Starnge because you speak about scientist and science so I interapt the conversation because many scientist belive in the existance of God.

You must have me confused with someone else. I never mentioned science except to say that I was unaware of any scientific discoveries that bear on the End Times, which was in response to something fencingfrog said about science and/or scientists.

So, he started it, not me. Go beat him up.

"'Perhaps you could find out who this scientist is, so I could look up the reference?'"

If you want....

Yes, actually, I'd like to know that. Please.

[latenight]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS
You must start to care for your soul as you care for your body.

Originally Posted by latenight

Well that would certainly bode poorly for my soul......I wonder if it likes Stoli too?

Loch, you sure you wouldn't rather start treating your soul like I treat my body than continue this discussion.... :P

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Yes I live in darkness and I am trying to see the Light.What abouy you?

Looking for the light switch actually. Here, in Canada, we have these big things called "Power Plants" which provide enough electrical power to excite the atoms in a tungston filament to radiate photons. These photons, in turn, are reflected by objects and detected by sensitive cones in our eyes. We Canadians use these things called "eyes" to detect objects, so we don't bump into them.

Besides, everyone knows that parts of our country live in the light, 24 hours a day for weeks on end.

You said:'Irrelevant. What some scientist(s) believes or disbelieve about God has no bearing on this conversation. I'm not talking to scientists, I'm talking to fencingfrog. And now to you. Unless you're a scientist...?'

Realy? Irrelevant for you. Starnge because you speak about scientist and science so I interapt the conversation because many scientist belive in the existance of God. No I am not scientist. I am computer scientist. I have frients which are scients and they belive in God.

Good for them. Are you saying that the stochastic evidence for the existence in God is that there are people who are labelled as Scientists that take as base first principal the unproven (and unprovable) assertion of God? In Aristolean logic, we call this a "circular definition". That the proof for God is that some people don't need proof for God.

By the way, do not think that I try to convert you or something. We just discuss this matter because we have different opinions. Your believes are personal matter..

Kind regards

Opinions are great, so long as they are respectfully expressed. Otherwise, as a wise man once told me, "Opinions are like arseholes: everyone has one and they all stink."

James.

[fencingfrog]

So you're trying to convince him to believe then? Aristotle's rhetoric to the rescue!

I guess you could say that. his soul will suffer if he doesnt believe, but its a choice. im just laying out the facts.

Hm...gullibility = believing, without proof, what anybody tells you, while faith = believing, without proof, what preachers and ministers tell you.
Sorry. Still looks the same from out here. Maybe it's that whole "believing without proof" part that prevents me from seeing how different they really are...

i take that back. the Bible is proof. and the miracles were proof. what i meant is there are no miracles now so you have to TRUST. trust is key. not just blindly following.

Really? I don't remember that part. Book/chapter/verse, please?

the Bible is big so ill tell u later. i have to find the quote.

Which raises the question: Where did all the water come from? Did it exist before the creation? But only God existed before creation, so was the water God? Or is God made of water, maybe? Hmm...

God put the water there. it was created. the def. of create is to make from nothing, i believe, and that is what God does. God may be made of water, because He is everything and everywhere. so if water is somewhere, He is in it.

Do we know for a fact that they are all talking about the same flood? Or that the flood they're speaking of was the same as Noah's flood?

i havent heard of any other world covering floods...especially because there was a covenant saying that was the last one.

What I am saying is that you have chosen to believe, without proof, what someone else has told you. (See, "gullibility", above.)

Unless, of course, like our estimable President, God speaks to you directly, then another man or woman--maybe several men and/or women, over time--told you that the Judeo-Christian God is the only true God and that the Bible is His Word and that you should believe it. You didn't come to those conclusions on your own.

I'm just wondering why you chose to believe those people and not others who told you something different.

my proof is the Bible. and the Lord. what was that about the president?? of course i didnt think of this on my own. im trusting others who like me trust in God. but His Book is His Word, and i also trust that.

Meaning you just have to know which parts to leave out in order for it to make sense.

no. im catholic not protestant. we left the Bible whole. sometimes you may not need an entire quote or chapter, so you quote the rest. or you can only make sense of some of it, so that is what you know, the rest is unknown as of yet.

No, that's incorrect. You believe that God has told you because somebody else--priest, mother, whoever--told you that God has told you. Which isn't the same thing at all.

no, its not. but i trust them and God. and God has spoken to all of us. its whether you hear Him thats the issue.

So, he started it, not me. Go beat him up.

im a she thank you. and i will fight back. but why beat me up anyway? it was a mistaken identity case

Why proscribe what you know will not happen?

ill assume proscribe means predict. anyway, it will happen, and i/we didnt predict it. the prophets who were spoken directly to by the Lord did.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by latenight

Loch, you sure you wouldn't rather start treating your soul like I treat my body than continue this discussion.... :P

*shudder* Even my ironclad soul would crumple like tin foil in the face of that treatment...

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

ill assume proscribe means predict. anyway, it will happen, and i/we didnt predict it. the prophets who were spoken directly to by the Lord did.

Actually, to proscribe means to forbid. And the event that I said (facetiously) would never happen was a Pope who took the name Peter.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

i take that back. the Bible is proof. and the miracles were proof. what i meant is there are no miracles now <snip>.

*Sigh* The Bible can't be cited as a support for the Bible. That's called a "tautology". Something like:

"Hi. I'm God."
"Really? How can I be sure of that?"
"Because I say I am, and God doesn't lie and I'm God so it must be true."

Surely you can see the problem with the preceding dialogue?

And while we're on the subject, what happened to all the miracles? God performed all kinds of miracles 4000 years ago to convince people, yet He doesn't see fit to perform even one in the last, oh, 200 years or so. Doesn't that strike you as odd? I mean, if God wanted us to believe--really wanted us to believe--then a few miracles every decade or so would probably do the trick.

my proof is the Bible. and the Lord.

See "tautology", above.

what was that about the president??

George W. Bush has said in the past that God speaks to him directly. I can't help thinking that's a little extreme--don't you?

but His Book is His Word, and i also trust that.

Or so you've been told. How do you know they're right? And please don't just repeat "Because God said so"--we've already plowed that ground and I don't think we'll ever get a crop out of it. (See: Tautology, above)

sometimes you may not need an entire quote or chapter, so you quote the rest. or you can only make sense of some of it, so that is what you know, the rest is unknown as of yet.

So you get to pick and choose which Bible parts you'll use? Interesting. I didn't know Catholics could do that.

no, its not. but i trust them and God. and God has spoken to all of us. its whether you hear Him thats the issue.

If God wants to speak to me, I'm all ears. But I want to hear whatever God has to say directly from God, not somebody who claims to speak for Him.

im a she thank you.

Oops. Sorry.

anyway, it will happen, and i/we didnt predict it. the prophets who were spoken directly to by the Lord did.

Rather, you mean the prophets who claimed that God spoke directly to them.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Looking for the light switch actually. Here, in Canada, we have these big things called "Power Plants" which provide enough electrical power to excite the atoms in a tungston filament to radiate photons. These photons, in turn, are reflected by objects and detected by sensitive cones in our eyes. We Canadians use these things called "eyes" to detect objects, so we don't bump into them.

Besides, everyone knows that parts of our country live in the light, 24 hours a day for weeks on end.



Good for them. Are you saying that the stochastic evidence for the existence in God is that there are people who are labelled as Scientists that take as base first principal the unproven (and unprovable) assertion of God? In Aristolean logic, we call this a "circular definition". That the proof for God is that some people don't need proof for God.



Opinions are great, so long as they are respectfully expressed. Otherwise, as a wise man once told me, "Opinions are like arseholes: everyone has one and they all stink."

James.

Oh! You impress me, I thought that you live in the caves and wait the fire to come from the air.
As I see and you have problem with metaphorical ways of writting. Ok I speak in your way. When I speak about darkness I speak for the darkness which exist in our mind and our hearts.

Good for you too. If you do not want to wanter and search about Him this is your problem not mine.

I do not think so that this man who spoke like this is wise. What he said fact that he is the oposite and as I see you follow him.Good for you.