Grounded Strips

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by dberke

In my experience here in Seattle, I think people would balk at entry fees over about $20. In fact, prior to this year, most local tournaments just had a $5 entry fee. Most are now $10 in order to help pay for the new facilities....

When we do charge more, we invest the money in what the membership asks for. a few years back we spent the money buying new scoring machines and reels. Now that we have enough of those, we've been experimenting with bringing in high-level referees from out-of-state. I feel that that is a better use of the revenue since it brings up the overall quality level of our events. Metal strips, while nice, aren't often listed as things the WWD membership desires. More referees, however, gets mentioned often.

Dan

All good points as well. As an epeeist though even a few grounded strips are greatly preferable to none. If Seattlites think $10 tourneys are expensive they need a really check. If the tourneys have cost $5 until a couple years ago that explains why no one seems to have the $$$ for strips. I applaud the effort to generate turnout, and I'm not saying $10 tourneys don't have their place but for Opens and other events that don't normally draw alot of U-E rated fencers I think you would find that $20 wouldn't cause people to not attend, especially if it was advertised as a spring fund raising event.

Even better if the division were to do it rather than a club since then the division would have strips to rent out.

Just my $0.02

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by RoninX

As to the cost, as I've said before, I am already writing checks to participate in tourneys and would galdly pay $20 rather than $10 if I thought the extra was going to buy strips for the hosting club. Even s few small 25 person tourneyd can raise $2000 pretty quickly that way and I don't think $20 is too expensive for a tourney either. In MI in college (several years ago now) the USFA tourneys I went to were frequently $20-$25. Maybe that is the problem with clubs in the WWD, were all not charging enough to afford to fence on nicer stuff.

No such thing as free money...

I can't speak for Seattle, but I've found that usually, the cost of a tournament is reflective of the quality of the tournament. A $10 tournament is usually self-directed or nearly so, and gives out low-quality medals or none at all. (Not that I care about medals, but that's what happens.) More expensive tournaments have rated refs, medals and trophies, maybe nicer strips, etc. If a fencing tournament made $10 or $15 a person, fencers would figure out pretty quickly, and less people would go to the tournament.

Personally, I don't care all that much about grounded strips anyway. They're more of a luxury than a necessity.

[mlr2fence]

Originally Posted by HDG

I'm kind of surprised by what I'm reading in this thread. In Florida, which is real damn far from being the heartland of fencing in the US, all three divisions have full complements of strips. Some of them aren't looking too good anymore, but they all work. In our division, my club holds the strips on behalf of the division (we've got storage space) and a day or two before any tournament someone from the host club comes and picks them up.

[telkanuru]

All North Atlantic Section events have at least some grounded strips, as far as I can remember, as does the Pomme de Terre. And, as has been mentioned, Prise de Fer has 10 grounded strips in the floor.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by RoninX

Roll up strips are not that big. 4ft wide or so and 8-12" in diameter? You have no storage facilities? Heck, it would even fit in some lockers! Maybe there is some club or sport that would let you keep 1-2 strips along with there stuff?

I hope you are joking. The minimum they would be would be 5ft wide (1.5 meters) and if you had the inside diameter less than 8-12" you would destroy the strips. You are talking over 60' of metal. It is going to be closer to 1.5-2' in diameter.

The strips that were suggested by FishKillsFencer have not been out very long, but there have been reports on their long term durability. There are already reports there are a large percentage that no longer conduct at the level they are required to. The Pacific Coast Section is getting copper strips that are 1/4th the cost. They may not be the greatest, but even with how thin they are, I expect them to last longer than the Artos, especially in that they are repairable.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I hope you are joking. The minimum they would be would be 5ft wide (1.5 meters) and if you had the inside diameter less than 8-12" you would destroy the strips. You are talking over 60' of metal. It is going to be closer to 1.5-2' in diameter.
.

Yeah my bad, 5ish feet not 4 feet. Our strips were certainly not more than 1' in diameter though (OK, maybe one big old goliath strip was, that one was damn near 6.5' wide!) but most certainly weren't more than 8 inches in diameter. These were metal mesh strips, not sheeting, and have worked for years and are still working. How would rolling them would destroy them?

As far as cost goes I agree that cost often reflects tournament quality, however $20 is just not that much. I spend $16 on a 2 hour movie after I pick up some jujy fruits and stuff. I would much rather spend $20 at a fencing tourney that I have fun at for 3-4 hours (or more if I go very far) and know that my extra moeny means I can eventually fence on a grounded strip.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by RoninX

How would rolling them would destroy them?

Rolling them bends the copper strands, stressing them. The tighter the roll the more stress, therefore the more damage. Use something like a heavy-duty cardboard tube at the center of the roll and you have a wider diameter roll but less stress on the material of the strip.

-B

[KD5MDK]

Or buy sectional aluminum strips and have faster setup, teardown, and better durability. Only drawback is the bulk.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Rolling them bends the copper strands, stressing them. The tighter the roll the more stress, therefore the more damage. Use something like a heavy-duty cardboard tube at the center of the roll and you have a wider diameter roll but less stress on the material of the strip.

-B

I could buy that and the logic is sound. However the one huge 6.5' one we had has been rolled like that since 70s and it still works. The others date from the 80s and early 90s and so have also been rolled in that manner for more than a decade at this point with little or no problems.

Maybe MSU has just been lucky with their strips but over that timescale it would be extraordinary luck.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I've only fenced at one club that has any grounded strips.

I think you're spoiled.

(Of course, for big tournaments that aren't held in clubs, they get grounded strips together, at least for the foil and epee finals. But in terms of clubs, I've rarely seen any.)

Cal Fencing helped with the setup and tear down at the Junior PCC's in San Jose last weekend. While waiting for the fencing to finish so we could do the tear down I had a moment to chat with several coaches including Paul Soter from GGFC. Like I've said before no matter what your feelings about Paul are, I figure you should listen when he has something to say. Anyway he was bragging about how quickly his fencers had adapted to fencing on grounded strips which GGFC has recently installed. He said that it had taken them only one day of fencing to adapt their offensive play to the metal strips. And another day or so to adapt their defensive strategies to working with the metal strips and their opponents modified offensive strategies.

My point is that grounded (metal) strips are another factor in playing the game (epee). Unfortunately for me the only time I've ever really had an opportunity to fence on metal strips is the NACs/or Summer Nationals. But apparently it does take some adaption to fully make use of them. Time which is not readily available at a major tournament.

[RoninX]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

My point is that grounded (metal) strips are another factor in playing the game (epee). Unfortunately for me the only time I've ever really had an opportunity to fence on metal strips is the NACs/or Summer Nationals. But apparently it does take some adaption to fully make use of them. Time which is not readily available at a major tournament.

This is absolutely true. In my first bout on a grounded strip in collegiate competition a guy from Airforce (this was at the megameet at northwestern in '98 I believe) attacked into the strip at a low angle and slid his tip into my toe. I had thought he was out of distance for a toe touch so had gone for the hit without moving my front foot. Silly me, but I never got hit like that again. Still it was a touch that he got simply because I was not used to a grounded strip.

This (among many reasons) is why I am surprised at the prevelant preception that grounded strips are a luxury.

(clearly not every club can -or should- roll them out for practice - but if they were available at more tourneys people would at least have some experience with them)

[counterattack]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

My point is that grounded (metal) strips are another factor in playing the game (epee). Unfortunately for me the only time I've ever really had an opportunity to fence on metal strips is the NACs/or Summer Nationals. But apparently it does take some adaption to fully make use of them. Time which is not readily available at a major tournament.

Yeah, Jonathan! If you want grounded strips you just have to drag yourself to Stanford or GGFC every few weeks. It isn't so far.

As for grounded strips, both GGFC and Stanford have gone 100% grounded (Stanford 10 strips, GGFC... 8?) and I love it. They both use the Zivkovic cheese grater strips. They kill the shoes, but I love them anyway. As an added bonus, if you ever fall you get a red polka dot pattern on your palms. Very stylin'.

I think that tourneys really need to make an effort to have at least one grounded strip for epee. In the semis and the finals you shouldn't have to deal with acknowledging touches, and sometimes you can't be sure if the point was good. You can feel that they touched your foot, but that isn't the same as hitting cleanly enough that it went off. We had that this weekend and the fencers were really good about acknolwedging, but the referees ruled everything a floor hit unless acknolwedged. You sometimes
feel your competitive instinct say "maybe it wasn't solid enough to register" while your sportsmanship says "lets give it the benefit of the doubt".

[Bran]

Originally Posted by counterattack

As for grounded strips, both GGFC and Stanford have gone 100% grounded (Stanford 10 strips, GGFC... 8?) and I love it. They both use the Zivkovic cheese grater strips. They kill the shoes, but I love them anyway. As an added bonus, if you ever fall you get a red polka dot pattern on your palms. Very stylin'.

LMAO.

It is true that the surface of the "cheese grater" strips is a bit rough on the shoes. We have a choice when installing them - rough side up or smooth side up. We put the rough side up for the added traction and the fact that the smooth side is almost too smooth.

The reason for the difference is when a sheet of aluminum is perforated, the opposite side that's penetrated will have a small edge around the perimeter of each hole. Over time these edges will wear down, however, thus dampening the effect on killing your sneakers.

Overall, there is a great benefit to the perforation in that it will help you stick whether you are going forward, backward, or sideways. This is incredibly important for fencers given the high degree of reflexes involved.

The same cannot be said of the aluminum panels sold by Blue Guantlet, Absolute, PBT, and others. Moreover, the panels have a tendency to slide sideways, so your strip after a few bouts will have an S-shape. In fact, those are made in Turkey by a company called Green Apple.

http://www.multlock-turkey.com/Pist/AluPist.htm

Of course the copper strips are incredibly slippery and obviously take an eon to set up. Although the roll-up factor is pretty key.

Ours isn't perfect but we're going to try to work on ways to improve them for the future. Any suggestions are welcome.

Anyway, I am glad to hear that Stanford and Golden Gate are enjoying the strips. You can also find them on the east coast at Prise de Fer and in the Midwest at a couple of colleges and high schools.

Soon to come - New Jersey.... stay tuned.

[rac]

Down here in Florida, the Central Division has a number of strips which are rented out to profit the division. Usual tourneys have at least 6 grounded strips sometimes more.

[El Chucko]

I apologize beforehand if this is a foolish question. I am not an engineer, and am rather ignorant when it comes to electrical doohickeys.

Anyway, I know there are "conductive paints." Would there be a way to paint a grounded strip that would have the required conductivity?

For those of us who cannot permanently paint our club floor, would it be possible to develop a paint-on coating or laminate that is conductive, but could be peeled-up later (like a thick latex paint, almost)?

Am I crazy?

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by El Chucko

I apologize beforehand if this is a foolish question. I am not an engineer, and am rather ignorant when it comes to electrical doohickeys.

Anyway, I know there are "conductive paints." Would there be a way to paint a grounded strip that would have the required conductivity?

For those of us who cannot permanently paint our club floor, would it be possible to develop a paint-on coating or laminate that is conductive, but could be peeled-up later (like a thick latex paint, almost)?

Am I crazy?

Check out this thread in the armory section. Several ideas there. The paint thing is possible, just expensive...

Cheap Copper Strip Alternatives