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Thread: can you talk during a bout

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    Member EpeeFlecher3's Avatar
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    can you talk during a bout

    can you talk during a bout to distract the person your fencing against
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    No. (Think about the second half)

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    Senior Member MyrddinsPrecint's Avatar
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    if you're mumbling to yourself, which most directors consider fine, assuming they can't actually make out anything you're saying, and THAT distracts your opponent............ then... maybe.

    but if whatever you're saying is timed/phrased/at a volume such that it is obviously potentially distracting your opponent, that's a card. and if you seem to be systematically doing it (rather than doing it by accident), and you specifically mean to be distracting your opponent, that's a worse card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint
    if you're mumbling to yourself, which most directors consider fine, assuming they can't actually make out anything you're saying, and THAT distracts your opponent............ then... maybe.

    but if whatever you're saying is timed/phrased/at a volume such that it is obviously potentially distracting your opponent, that's a card. and if you seem to be systematically doing it (rather than doing it by accident), and you specifically mean to be distracting your opponent, that's a worse card.
    So, what rule are you carding them for? Distirubing order on the strip (G3 Red Card)? Dishonest fencing (G3 Red Card)? Offense against sportsmanship (Black Card)? Or were you thinking of just a Yellow Card? I'm not sure which group 1 rule (other than refusal to obey referee after I've told them not to do it) this behavior violates. Nothing in group 2 seems appropriate.

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    Senior Member rory's Avatar
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    Plenty of people shout just as they deliver the hit. Never seen a card for it. How is that different?
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    Alot of the time it is just as he hit lands or was assumed to have landed as such it is not during the fight. But instead is inbetween points
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbryan
    So, what rule are you carding them for? Distirubing order on the strip (G3 Red Card)? Dishonest fencing (G3 Red Card)? Offense against sportsmanship (Black Card)? Or were you thinking of just a Yellow Card? I'm not sure which group 1 rule (other than refusal to obey referee after I've told them not to do it) this behavior violates. Nothing in group 2 seems appropriate.
    I thought about it, and disorderly fencing seems to suit. "All bouts must preserve the character of a curteous and frank encounter..."

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    Senior Member RoninX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cs3dswb
    Alot of the time it is just as he hit lands or was assumed to have landed as such it is not during the fight. But instead is inbetween points
    Seen much Sabre? In both Sabre and foil a large percentage of people yell while action is occuring. Granted the loudest yells occur "during" touches but I have never seen a card handed out for it.

    I have never seen someone audibly trash talk someone on the strip. Or even yell discernable words at their opponent (in a competition situation )
    Last edited by RoninX; 03-24-2006 at 11:11 AM.
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    Senior Member fencerchica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poulet
    This is true unless your name is Ed Richards. In that case, you claim to have a metal plate in your head and you card people on other strips who yell "too loudly". (Yes, I have witnessed him doing that; I was a victim of it once).
    I was actually wondering about something like this lately. I don't as, a general thing, have a problem with people yelling. However, speaking from a purely practical standpoint, when you have the real ear-splitters at a venue, it can be genuinely distracting to everyone in the vicinity, including fencers on neighboring strips. While I don't think yelling should be in any way penalized as a general rule, it does seem reasonable to me that yelling SO obnoxiously loudly that you're messing up the people all around you ought, indeed, to be something that can be penalized...

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    Senior Member fencerbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoninX
    I have never seen someone audibly trash talk someone on the strip. Or even yell discernable words at their opponent (in a competition situation )
    Guess you haven't watched much Veterans fencing. Although most of it is in good fun.

    I warn fencers that if I think they are yelling AT their opponent, I will card them. If it is impersonal, I put up with it. Although I have been known to say that their yelling startled me so much I wasn't sure they had scored a touch.
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    Senior Member MyrddinsPrecint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbryan
    So, what rule are you carding them for? Distirubing order on the strip (G3 Red Card)? Dishonest fencing (G3 Red Card)? Offense against sportsmanship (Black Card)? Or were you thinking of just a Yellow Card? I'm not sure which group 1 rule (other than refusal to obey referee after I've told them not to do it) this behavior violates. Nothing in group 2 seems appropriate.

    While many have a problem with ALL yelling, I usually don't. But if someone is coming down the strip on a long attack while yelling the entire way, that's just not appropriate. I'm not sure it deserves a red card for disturbing order on the strip the first time it happens though.... but it certainly is disturbing order.....

    the easiest thing is the refusal to obey referee bit you mentioned--- and that's perfect for excessive yelling at the very end of the action.

    but what about the yelling as going down the strip? that deserves to be carded at that moment, but maybe not a group 3 red.....


    *shrug* my approach would be "yellow card"- and not say what for, because i KNOW there isn't anything specific i can yellow card them for.... and if they or their coach argues that there is nothing i can yellow card them for, THEN say "oh, I'm sorry, you're right. that's a group 3 red. my apologies."

    if it was done, however, in a way that was obviously "to distract the opponent", as the original post describes....... Dishonest fencing, group 3 red, without such a warning tactic as previously mentioned. the trick, however, is to determine what's obviously distracting one's opponent. -- of course, sometime's it's not that difficult. like when i'm fencing at practice and i yell "BOOBIES" at my opponent in the middle of her attack. then i'm CLEARLY getting carded...............

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    Senior Member RoninX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fencerbill
    Guess you haven't watched much Veterans fencing. Although most of it is in good fun.
    Nope, I haven't. Of course of course once you're on the Vet citcuit they all only have one opponent: they are all running the inevitable race against death so we should cut them some slack if their age addled brains can't keep their mouths shut...


    ...oh for a sarcasm smiley
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    MP - read my second post above, #9.

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    Senior Member seak's Avatar
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    At a local low level collegiate competition two teamates were fencing in a pool bout and I was reffing (I am also a member of the same club). One fencer was far better then the other and everyone knew it.

    Down 4 - 0 she screamed Here Come's the Revolution audibly enough for me and the other fencer to hear as she launched her counterattack he missed she hit on her counter attack

    The next touch she screams Nebraska and launches an attack he is also attacking, I start laughing and can't see the action, two lights. I told the fencer it might have been her action but I was laughing to hard that I couldn't see well enough to award a point and basically told her to stop it. He got the next touch bout over.

    It was pretty funny and still gets a laugh at the club, however it was inapropriate in terms of fencing and is not something that she would pull at a more strict competition
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    Senior Member MyrddinsPrecint's Avatar
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    oh, excessive yelling during the action certainly falls under the, um, "jusidiction" of "disturbing order"--- but a group 3 red could potentially be too harsh a punishment, depending on the situation.... and what mood the ref is in.......

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    Senior Member fencerbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoninX
    Nope, I haven't. Of course of course once you're on the Vet citcuit they all only have one opponent: they are all running the inevitable race against death so we should cut them some slack if their age addled brains can't keep their mouths shut...


    ...oh for a sarcasm smiley
    That is the big race. Although we do take time to acknowledge those who are longer with us.

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    Like when, at my present age of 70, I resent all those young punks who have just aged into the 60 Plus bracket.

    Even Ray Sexton, who won all 3 60 Plus events at Reno, failed to qualify in any weapon for the World team the year before he turned 60.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint
    oh, excessive yelling during the action certainly falls under the, um, "jusidiction" of "disturbing order"--- but a group 3 red could potentially be too harsh a punishment, depending on the situation.... and what mood the ref is in.......
    That's why I proposed "disorderly fencing", a different and Group 1 offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK
    I thought about it, and disorderly fencing seems to suit. "All bouts must preserve the character of a curteous and frank encounter..."
    Yeah, okay. That seems reasonable. A G3 Red seemed too severe. I guess that I normally think of disorderly fencing in terms of movements that are out of control or bizarre, but I think that distracting your opponent could be classified as not courteous.

    I must admit, though, that I like MyrddinsPrecint's suggestion in general. "Yellow card." "For what?!" "Trying to distract your opponent." "That's not a rule. There's no yellow card for that. I appeal." "Fine. Let's check the penalty chart, first. Well, you're right! Your appeal is upheld. Disturbing order on the strip isn't a yellow: it's a group 3 red. Here's your red card."
    Last edited by tbryan; 03-24-2006 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Let's use the real spelling of courteous, shall we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EpeeFlecher3
    can you talk during a bout to distract the person your fencing against
    Shouting when you deliver a point is legal but on the other hand if you do it in order to distract your opponent you will receive a card.(I think it depends on what you say and how much loudly do you say it.)

  20. #20
    Senior Member MyrddinsPrecint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KD5MDK
    That's why I proposed "disorderly fencing", a different and Group 1 offense.

    wow, i blatently failed to actually read your post two times in a row.


    it's far too early in the afternoon for me to be awake.

    i suppose that disroderly fencing would be more appropriate in the cases i was trying to categorize, where you're not entirely sure if they're purposely trying to distract their opponent or just don't have a clue what they're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbryan
    I must admit, though, that I like MyrddinsPrecint's suggestion in general.
    what can i say-- i've been trained well by a large group of snarky individuals... really, all the cool people in/near or have spent a great deal of time in the New England Division are ALL about the snark.

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