2 Epee Questions

[jdoiv]

1) Other than the wires being fastened to the socket at the top, should they also be held in place by the socket on the side? I am referring to the metal plate that the socket body connects to the socket mount (the metal bit that fits around the tang and hold the socket in place). I saw this this past weekend on someone's weapon and thought that it looked like a good way to prevent the wires from being ripped out. I also wondered if it could also lead to breaking the wires at that point.

2) Just for grins, is using a synthetic adhesive like loctite to secure the barrel to the blade legal? From looking at m.20 it looks like it could be, but isn't specified. Where would approved substances be listed?

Thanks for all the replies in advance!

[Morion]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

2) Just for grins, is using a synthetic adhesive like loctite to secure the barrel to the blade legal? From looking at m.20 it looks like it could be, but isn't specified. Where would approved substances be listed?

Thanks for all the replies in advance!

It's done all the time.

[KD5MDK]

In 1), do you mean clamped between the socket and the bellguard? That is a bad thing. Wires should run inside the socket tang hole through the notch provided. I can't say not doing this makes the weapon non-conforming, but it is a bad idea.

2) is a long established practice and perfectly legal. There is no list of approved substances, effectively anything is legal to keep the barrel tight on the blade.

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

In 1), do you mean clamped between the socket and the bellguard? That is a bad thing. Wires should run inside the socket tang hole through the notch provided. I can't say not doing this makes the weapon non-conforming, but it is a bad idea.

2) is a long established practice and perfectly legal. There is no list of approved substances, effectively anything is legal to keep the barrel tight on the blade.

1) No, I mean where the insulating part of the socket mounts to the socket mount. Very close to where the wires attach to the socket.

2) I'm aware that loctite is widely used, but the rules state:

M.20
1. Normally, only fixing by metal to metal is allowed.
However, fixing by any insulating material of great
mechanical strength may be authorized after approval by
the SEMI Committee of the FIE.

This makes it sound like there is a list of approved bonding agents, but doesn't say.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

2) Just for grins, is using a synthetic adhesive like loctite to secure the barrel to the blade legal? From looking at m.20 it looks like it could be, but isn't specified. Where would approved substances be listed?

Thanks for all the replies in advance!

The barrel is not secured to the blade by the loctite. It is secured by the threads in the barrel tightened onto the threads on the tip.

In practice you get it tight by either having the blade bottom onto the partition inside the barrel or by the threads on the bottom of the barrel becoming immovable by increase in the diameter of the blade beyond the threads. (although the latter can cause the barrel to split and then you can never get the barrel to stay tight.)

The loctite is to prevent vibration, etc. from causing the barrel to loosen during use. A weapon with proper blade threads and proper barrel threads doesn't need loctite. It is because of the imperfections in this fallen world that we sinners need to use loctite.

[jdoiv]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

The loctite is to prevent vibration, etc. from causing the barrel to loosen during use. A weapon with proper blade threads and proper barrel threads doesn't need loctite. It is because of the imperfections in this fallen world that we sinners need to use loctite.

Thanks fencerbill, that answered my question very nicely (even for a sinner). So what does part one of m.20 refer to if not loctite?

Also, any comment on question 1? Is securing the wires to the guard socket before the socket posts required? I have yet to see anything in the rules.
Thanks

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by jdoiv

Also, any comment on question 1? Is securing the wires to the guard socket before the socket posts required? I have yet to see anything in the rules.
Thanks

There is implicit a suggestion that the FIE does not expect you to secure the wires to the guard socket. They forbid you to use tape which could conceal a switch.

They also affirmatively expect you to house each of the wires in a separate single piece of spaghetti tubing which extends completely from the blade to the socket. That is the only thing they expect you to do. That and the wire cannot extend beyond the socket.

The instructions to referees at NACs reminds us that the referee cannot complain if transparent tape is used to hold down Epee wires. One could use rubber bands to hold to hold the wires to the guard socket, presumably.

With regard to a groove in the plastic socket body, not all guard sockets have them. Leon Paul sockets come to mind.

[jdoiv]

that was what I was looking for. I do have one socket with the groove, but I don't think the other two do (old prieur). Everything else is conforms to the rules.

[KD5MDK]

I would not consider running the wires under a metal plate through the groove to be non-conforming. I might give the plate a push, just like I squeeze tape on french grips, but I think the chances it might conceal a switch are low enough that the help it gives in making it harder to rip out a wire are worthwhile.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

With regard to a groove in the plastic socket body, not all guard sockets have them. Leon Paul sockets come to mind.

Neither does Prieur.

Jdoiv: The rules state that the wires must be away from the fencers fingers -- this is to prevent a fencer from messing around with them. The common method is to have the wires come up the back side of the socket...either just by simply running the wire between the socket and guard, OR by the little channels in the socket itself.

My own sockets have the wire entry point below the to surface of the socket block...and from the backside of the block....but it's still uner development.

Dan told me about a ref wo insisted that IF the channesl was there, iy had to be used.."sir, show me the rule" was my response.

Bill is correct about the tape. There is actually NO rule about tape in the guard....the director must be able to verify -- by visual inspection -- that the wires are in 2 seperate sheaths...clear tape allows that.

[fencerbill]

I have recently seen an assembly in which there were two separate round holes through the block, one for each wire AND large enough that you could use them with spaghetti large enough to go over double thread wrapped French Epee wires. But I don't remember whose it was.

[Duellist USA]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I have recently seen an assembly in which there were two separate round holes through the block, one for each wire AND large enough that you could use them with spaghetti large enough to go over double thread wrapped French Epee wires. But I don't remember whose it was.

....raises hand.....


That would be us for one...our epee sockets have two seperate holes, one for each spagetti wire allowing easier assembly and repair...


Rick Shellhouse

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

....raises hand.....


That would be us for one...our epee sockets have two seperate holes, one for each spagetti wire allowing easier assembly and repair...


Rick Shellhouse

I thought i saw that on a Chinese knock-off a few years back...I actually liked it better than the tiny channel Uhlmann gives...

[KD5MDK]

I had a guy at a tournament who had an epee he claimed was brand new from Absolute, bought at the Houston NAC, with the wires unconfined and sticking way out into the grip area. It offended me to look at.

At Reno, I had a fencer report to strip with some painter's tape holding the wires to the guard. When I pointed it out to him, he said he'd just bought the weapon that day from ELI and hadn't even looked at it. I know a fencer is responsible for their equipment, but I'm sorry for ones who get non-conforming gear from vendors. (Tape there I just tear off. Tape on the pistol grip is a different matter.)

[Gav]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I have recently seen an assembly in which there were two separate round holes through the block, one for each wire AND large enough that you could use them with spaghetti large enough to go over double thread wrapped French Epee wires. But I don't remember whose it was.

I had an Eastern European socket with this arrangement. Personally I thought it was more trouble than it's worth.

[Gav]

Glue the barrel down if you want. When you come to rewire the barrel is more difficult to get off (natch) - I think the irritation of dealing with the Super glue is not worth it. In my experience it's more trouble than it's worth. If you tighten your barrel properly when you assemble the Epee then a loose barrel shouldn't be a problem anyway. Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've never actually had a problem with a loose barrel.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Gav

Glue the barrel down if you want. When you come to rewire the barrel is more difficult to get off (natch) - I think the irritation of dealing with the Super glue is not worth it. In my experience it's more trouble than it's worth. If you tighten your barrel properly when you assemble the Epee then a loose barrel shouldn't be a problem anyway. Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've never actually had a problem with a loose barrel.

Now whether something else is loose is another question.