Age limitations for senior events -- EC determination

[oiuyt]

Just received this email....

Dear Division and Section Chairs and members of the Board of Directors,

The Executive Committee of the United States Fencing Association passed the following resolutions this week in order to clarify some misunderstandings regarding age group eligibility in sanctioned fencing competitions:

1. To reaffirm the motion of the Coaches Committee, approved by the USFA Board of Directors on September 21, 1996, regarding age eligibility in USFA competition, as per the attached.

2. That the age restrictions set forth in the motion of the Coaches Committee, approved by the USFA Board of Directors on September 21, 1996, regarding age eligibility in USFA competition, were based upon considerations of safety and pedagogy that apply with equal force at all levels of competition, and the restrictions set forth therein shall be enforced at all levels and in all sanctioned USFA competitions.

It is the hope of the Executive Committee that this clarification of previously adopted practices will eliminate any and all confusion regarding Age Group Eligibility in sanctioned competitions.

Thank you.

USFA

The three email attachments are also attached here for reference. Note that there will (presumably) be a second-hearing item on the BoD agenda in July to change this policy (allowing divisions to have any limitations (or not) that they choose for divisional-sanctioned events).

-B

[darius]

Interesting.

So at this point, we're "on notice," so to speak, that any competition which allows an < 13 year old to enter could be subject to ... what? Having its ratings yanked? Publically flogging the organizer? Nothing?

Just looking at lists on askfred, I definitely see a few competitions in the near future which might be in violation of this.

darius

[oso97]

Originally Posted by document

Examples of non age restricted competitions are: “Unclassified”, “A” competitions, “C” or under competitions, team competitions of any category unless specified for juniors or similar age restricted category.

Okay, this is an unclear statement. If it means that these competitions should be limited to fencers 13 and up, then for clarity's sake it should be re-edited to read, "Examples of non age restricted competitions (and subject to the above restriction) are: “Unclassified”, “A” competitions, “C” or under competitions, team competitions of any category unless specified for juniors or similar age restricted category.

The first time I read it, I thought it meant that those events could CIRCUMVENT that rule.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by darius

Interesting.

So at this point, we're "on notice," so to speak, that any competition which allows an < 13 year old to enter could be subject to ... what? Having its ratings yanked? Publically flogging the organizer? Nothing?

Just looking at lists on askfred, I definitely see a few competitions in the near future which might be in violation of this.

darius

They're not an official USFA tournament and don't qualify for ratings.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Also interesting that, unless you had access to the historic documents provided here by Oiuyt, you wouldn't know about the exception to the 13 or older rule in "Open" or NAC level USFA competitions.

If you read this on the USFA website, for instance:

Recently, several families and divisions have raised questions about USFA rules regarding minimum age requirements for local and regional "open" events.

The same rules apply to all USFA events that do not carry a specific age restriction (youth events, cadets, juniors, and veteran events)-whether they are NAC or national championship events, or run by a club, division, or section.

To compete in a USFA-sponsored "open" event, all fencers must be at least 13 years old on January 1 of the competitive season in question.

You would be blissfully unaware that little Johnny-12-year-old--who has points in Junior NAC competition--is actually allowed to fence in the Div1a Sectional Qualifiers.

In fact, you'd be thinking he's specifically barred from that competition, and from the Podunk Fencing Emporium's Halloween Open tournament, as well.

Why is such a significant exception to the rule constantly left out of the communications from the USFA?

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Why is such a significant exception to the rule constantly left out of the communications from the USFA?

Given that the number of competitors this applies to can probably counted on a single hand...

[Capt. Slo-mo]

While that's true, it's still quite significant to those it affects.

And, it just re-inforces ignorance on the part of Bout Committees...especially at the Divisional and Sectional level. There have been real-life cases of kids being denied the opportunity to compete at the Sectional Qualifiers due to just this misunderstanding about the exception to the 13 year age limit.

[darius]

Given that the number of competitors this applies to can probably counted on a single hand...

If the exception were expanded to Cadet or Y-14 points lists, it wouldn't. And really, most of the nationally-competitive Y-14ers, even the ones who are 12 years old, have the composure to handle opens.

13's not a bad age to set a limit, but the exception for those who are competitive is a little too high -- Johnny-12-yr-old shouldn't have to have Jr points. Given the level of national competition, earning Cadet points should be proof enough that they can handle themselves.

darius

[oso97]

Originally Posted by darius

13's not a bad age to set a limit, but the exception for those who are competitive is a little too high -- Johnny-12-yr-old shouldn't have to have Jr points. Given the level of national competition, earning Cadet points should be proof enough that they can handle themselves.

darius

I'd agree with that.

[rcmatthews]

Maybe its to save certain adults from the embarrasement of losing to a 12 year old.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by oso97

I'd agree with that.

Likewise.

And I wouldn't be surprised to see modifications to the current standards coming out of the discussions that will take place in July.

Cadet points seems about the right level to me. Y14 points seems a bit light if we're really concerned about avoiding potential problems with younger/smaller kids and adults. By the time someone (of any age) can successfully make a top-32 national cadet result s/he better be able to handle most adult-sized opposition. I don't see this being true of everyone (or close enough to it to use as a good standard) capable of making the top-32 of a SYC or YNAC (although it's clearly true of a number of people that can and do).

-B

[oso97]

good reasoning Brad. Will you be the one to propose the modification, since you're on the BOD?

[Mr Epee]

Why is it so important for 12 year olds to compete in open competitions?

This doesn't make sense to me, for exactly the reasons listed by CMR.

If these kids aren't getting enough competitive experience, then there should be more emphasis on providing them with competitive outlets that are appropriate to their age.

Yes, some kids are more talented than others, but what do they gain by participating in gross physical/psychological mismatches.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by oso97

good reasoning Brad. Will you be the one to propose the modification, since you're on the BOD?

The pending motion is Jospeh Streb's.

I certainly plan to raise the suggestion in the discussion however.

I could see this going any of a number of different ways (and there are undoubtedly options that I haven't thought of that have non-negligible probability of occurring).

* I could see the motion being withdrawn completely, leaving the status quo without much (possibly any) opportunity for discussion. I think this is unlikely to happen.

* I could see the matter being quickly referred to committee or an ad-hoc task force (although, preferably, all committees with a reasonable connection to the issue will already be submitting comments, as that is a part of the purpose of the first-hearing, second-hearing system), with or without significant discussion.

* I could see the matter being discussed at length and a reasonable policy being decided at the Board meeting.

* More likely I can see a reasonable policy coming out of committee comments, being discussed and accepted with minimal modification.

* A hybrid between the above two where a committee comment acts as a starting point for extensive discussions and modifications and a final (at least until next time ) policy determination.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the second-to-last option above is what will happen. Lots of stuff tends to get handled outside of the official meetings as considerably more efficient.

Obvious committees from which to receive comments include: YDC and National Coaches, and, to a lesser extent, AAG, Sports Safety, and possibly IPSC and TC.

-B

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

The pending motion is Jospeh Streb's.
-B

It would be significantly more appropriate for this issue to be addressed by an individual who doesn't have a "dog in the fight".

I was certainly capable of driving a car prior to my 16th birthday, but local law stated that I could not.

I followed politics prior to my 18th birthday and was capable of making informed decisions. I was not allowed to vote.

I was capable of responsible consuption of alchohol prior to my 21st birthday. My parents did not lobby to have the law changed.

[Mr Epee]

E Sterling Streb, Columbus, OH. (y-12 WS)

Same surname - same city.

I assume there is a relationship.

I may be mistaken.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

It would be significantly more appropriate for this issue to be addressed by an individual who doesn't have a "dog in the fight".

Unfortunately, that is not what is happening. If Mr. Streb is a duely certified member of the BOD, then he is entitled to make motions. If you don't like the motion, then work to defeat it or alter it, or discuss the matter with the group who put him on the BOD (I believe he is the Sectional Rep from Great Lakes?).

However, it should be worth noting that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the issues presented to the BOD are brought there by someone who has some sort of stake in the matter. It would be difficult to do it otherwise. How would ou under take the process of advisement, petition and review?

[mlr2fence]

This is certainly a can of worms. Take for example Albuquerque NACS in Y 14 WE where, if I seem to recall correctly, there were 43 fencers and 32 received points!! (whatever happened to top 40% rule?? Compare this to events of 150+ where only top 32 make points--real fair--right?!?!) Does that mean that just because they made 'points' that they, as young girls, are able to safely fence a strong mixed A4 open? I don't necessarily think so because a Y10 that makes 12 points could fence in 14s, win a few pool bouts and make Y 14 'points', but they are still a little kid. In this case not a true indicator of ability, size, strength, etc to insure that they could safely fence in mixed A4 opens. I think a better option is to improve the RYC concept, or at the very least keep them limited to gender specific events. Unfortunately one cannot rely on the parent's judgement since there are always those that push their kids waaaayy too much and would think nothing of letter a little kid compete against the 'big guns'. If a talented 12 yr old kid has to wait a year for the opens, whats the big deal? Let him have something to look forward to. We don't always have to cater to instant gratification. He can still bout at the club against adults.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Why is it so important for 12 year olds to compete in open competitions?

This doesn't make sense to me, for exactly the reasons listed by CMR.

If these kids aren't getting enough competitive experience, then there should be more emphasis on providing them with competitive outlets that are appropriate to their age.

Yes, some kids are more talented than others, but what do they gain by participating in gross physical/psychological mismatches.

For most kids, it's not important. However, there are some kids whose competitive abilities are so far ahead of their local age group that there's only one or two kids in their age group if any who provide them a bout at or near their level. As such, their competitive opportunities are:
a) Dominate their local competitions in their age group
b) Go to every high level youth event (SYC, NACs) at great expense
c) Fence better but older fencers in the senior category.

Assuming some level of demonstrated competency in fencing, such as displayed by a points earning result at some level (Cadet, Junior, whatever is decided) I don't see how the very best youth fencers are disadvantaged by fencing up, when there aren't competitive local fencers in their age group.