Christian convert faces death penalty in Afghanistan

[jeff]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

So Jeff tells me that philosophic abstractions leave him cold and uninterested, then he posts 4 screens of CS Nerdiness that would do justice to any "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" debate.

Heh, heh... I'll just say "James started it!" (besides, that's the part of CS that's the reason I'm Mr. Jeff, and not Dr. Jeff. Which saved me a fortune, but that's another story)

[quote=dcmdaleJust FYI, this conversation would be quite welcome in any epistomology class, but I am just reading and learning from people who understand the issues better.[/QUOTE]

"epistomology", hey watch yer language buddy - no dirty words on this board!

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by jeff

Heh, heh... I'll just say "James started it!" (besides, that's the part of CS that's the reason I'm Mr. Jeff, and not Dr. Jeff. Which saved me a fortune, but that's another story)

Did not! It was Peter.

James.

[jeff]

Did to! (what was Peter replying to?)

BTW: In the news, they've arranged for asylum in Italy, but the clerics want him dead anyway. Fortunately for him - he has left the country! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/...istian_convert

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by jeff

Did to! (what was Peter replying to?)

Did not! If that's the way we're going to go, it was ReverseLunge that started it. So nyah!

James.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Have you go to Italy and see the old Rome? Have you go to Venice to see the old city? All Italy is a jwellery of ancient buildings and art objects! I have visit Italy and it was great!

Are you kidding? In Rome they have this great big colosseum that has been in ruins for about 1,500 years. In all that time, they've never bothered to fix it up. It just sits there, right in the middle of the city. They ought to be ashamed of themselves, but they seem to be proud of it.

And Greece let its ruins sit there decaying for far longer than that.

I've been being humorous so far, but there is a serious cultural point that occurs to me now: In Europe, it really is seen as a good thing to let the amazing architecture of ancient times go to pieces -- people look on the ruins with pride. In China and Japan, on the other hand, it is preferable to keep ancient structures maintained and functional, and it would be shameful to let them go to ruin. In the US, we don't have any ancient anything, but we prefer to either maintain or replace, and would be ashamed of a major building being allowed to go to ruins.

I think part of the reason is a difference in what is valued. The european looks at the Parthenon and says "the original stonecutting is lost, the art is gone, it cannot be replaced, so let's marvel at what remains and imagine what it must have been." There is a value placed on the original artists' handwork.

In Asia and the US, however, what is valued is not the handwork itself, but the architect's design and vision. Suppose you have a two thousand year old temple. A column fell apart? They carve a new one and replace it. That wall needs to be re-faced? They do so. Those stones are worn and need to be replaced. That statue needs to be repaired. Over the centuries, it may well be that none of the original materials remain, but is it not still the same building it was a thousand years ago?

This highlights a deeper cultural contrast: In Asia and the USA, adaptation is possible without changing the underlying principle. In Europe, any change requires a redefinition of what is being modified. Thus the asian and american propensity to change and for flexibility, and the european resistance to change and frustration with globalization.

I believe that success requires an ability to adapt. So europe and the other stubbornly traditionalist countries like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. must either learn to adapt, or they will be left behind to fester in poverty and anger, with nothing left to be proud of other than fond memories of bygone ages when they used to be something.

[jeff]

Oooh - another tangent opportunity!

Can't speak about the Greek ruins (bad that the Brits took the "Elgin" marbles, good that they were in a safer place to survive to today), but the Italian locations are maintained: Last I was in Rome, the Coliseum had scaffolding all over, the Palatine ruins were maintained. The Pantheon is in tip-top state. In Sicily, the theatre in Syracusa was being rebuilt. The objective in many but not all cases is clearly not to restore to 'as new' condition, but they are being preserved for the future: it's an aesthetic choice to rebuild as new or preserve 'as-is'.

[dcmdale]

Looks like he officially is out. Guess I'm eating crow (again). (At least if he can keep his head down ala Salman Rushdie).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060329/...ian_convert_98

Now I am wondering how life will go for those who helped him get out.

[VELISARIOS]

Hi again and goodmorning epefox sorry for the delay but we have 7 hour difference


You said:
'Are you kidding? In Rome they have this great big colosseum that has been in ruins for about 1,500 years. In all that time, they've never bothered to fix it up. It just sits there, right in the middle of the city. They ought to be ashamed of themselves, but they seem to be proud of it'

No I do not.
As Jeff said in his post Italians reconstract almost everything. And offcourse Italians must be proud, Colosieum stand still even now after 2100 years without maitenance.


You said:
'And Greece let its ruins sit there decaying for far longer than that.'

No, we do not keep them in ruins. The situations keep our buildings in ruins.We reconsrtruct our buildings till 1453 when Constantinoupole fell to Turks. For 400 years after that we were enslaved. The Turks did not fix the buildings and many of them keep it unfixed or they had destroy them (our castles and forts for example). When we were free from them till now we have serius problems with those 'beloved' neiberhoods.We need money for defence. So as I said before to reconstruct and maitenance all of those buildings we need money. And as I said before the most of our money spent for the defence of our country against the Turks. As I said before we are giving billions dollars to America every year and buy weapons.
But even in this situation we reconstract the ancient buildings again.After all Greece and Italy are full with ancient buildings and cities than other country. Many of the present cities had build upon the ancients one. For example when we build the metro we find a city under Athens. And as I have said before other countries have money to fix their ancient buildings. For example three days ago we found in Salamis the palace of prince Ajax(Ajax was a Achain hero which fought many times with Hector down of the walls of Troy). This ruin is 4000 years old from the Troyan war era, we found only the basement or what left from it and it was deep under the earth. What do you suppose that we must do? To build up again this palace? This could not be because the structure should be more imaginery and not the real one. Many ruins are in this status.There are ruins 4500 years old can you undearsdant it? What other building can stand still like those? And offcourse we are proud for our ansesors because they had build all those buildings and till now exists.By the way Japan did not have 'ancient' buildings of the age 3000 or 4500 years old their buildings are from medieval era (1150 or 1200 after the birth of Christ) and not from ancient and never Japanes enslaved from other nation for 400 years and their buildings did not destroyed from their conquers. Japan now is a rich nation. And do not try to like my country with yours, America is rich nation too.

O sugest you to see the following link:
http://www.culture.gr/2/21/toc/arc_sites.html

Now about the other matters you have said. It is not a collumn or a wall. There are the statues for example, who can made statues now like Phidias? Or the other ancient Greeks technisians? None. Even the Romans many years after the Phidias can not make a statue stand in their feet. They stand it in shield or something else. The secret of this arcitecture kept only for Phidias and his student.

You can not understand the Europian point of you because you are not Europian. The heart of Europe is the ancient history. We live with it. Especialy we Greeks and Italians we growth with it.

Hi Jeff, you said that our marmbes are safe in Brittish museum. I do not think so. Some months ago a student fall on a statue and it broke it. Some years ago the prime of the museum give his aprove to dress our statues with fashion clothes and photo them.This were rediculus.
The marbles must come to the original place.

Again we lost the point.We speak now for ancient buildings. Some one must start a new post about this matter in Water cooler.

Friendly
Velisarios

[Epee_Pox]

Velisarios:

I do understand your points. My original comments were partly made in jest. The only place where I got serious was in my musings over cultural differences in people's approaches to ancient works.

But as to the colosseum being a source of pride because it is still standing, I have to disagree. Half of it has crumbled away, it's unusable. It is a ruin, not a lasting work.

And I actually have been to the culture.gr sites, and am impressed with the dedication in recent decades to the preservation of the parthenon etc. However, preservation in their present ruined state, with minor reattachments of fallen marble, is not the same as repairing them to their former glory.

As to not having enough cash to do it -- Greece certainly has the cash. It is just a matter of priority in spending. Would you rather spend your money on a long and pointless conflict with Turkey? Fine, but don't complain about being broke afterwards. Nobody made you do it. You'd rather spend your money on American weapons? Fine, but don't complain about being broke. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you buy our stuff.

As I understand it, almost all the cash has come from the other european governments, who appear therefore to care more about the preservation than the Greeks do.

If you wanted it done, you would have done it. The reason these buildings are not restored and maintained in their original complete beauty, is not because other people prevented you from doing it. It is because you didn't think it needed to be done.

[dcmdale]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...408781,00.html

Interesting article on the Christian community in Afghanistan. Seems that the "traditional culture" might have been more open.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

Velisarios:

I do understand your points. My original comments were partly made in jest. The only place where I got serious was in my musings over cultural differences in people's approaches to ancient works.

But as to the colosseum being a source of pride because it is still standing, I have to disagree. Half of it has crumbled away, it's unusable. It is a ruin, not a lasting work.

And I actually have been to the culture.gr sites, and am impressed with the dedication in recent decades to the preservation of the parthenon etc. However, preservation in their present ruined state, with minor reattachments of fallen marble, is not the same as repairing them to their former glory.

As to not having enough cash to do it -- Greece certainly has the cash. It is just a matter of priority in spending. Would you rather spend your money on a long and pointless conflict with Turkey? Fine, but don't complain about being broke afterwards. Nobody made you do it. You'd rather spend your money on American weapons? Fine, but don't complain about being broke. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you buy our stuff.

As I understand it, almost all the cash has come from the other european governments, who appear therefore to care more about the preservation than the Greeks do.

If you wanted it done, you would have done it. The reason these buildings are not restored and maintained in their original complete beauty, is not because other people prevented you from doing it. It is because you didn't think it needed to be done.

Hi Epee Pox,
indeet we have different point of view but I can understand now your thoughts about this matter.

About the matter of Turkey is long story. Almost every day they sent they military airplanes and they pass our air borders, some days they sent war vessels, so we have to react. They took weapons then we must take weapons too. I can not tell you all the situation here because I do not know good English and maybe I ll be missaderstood again. I ll try to tell you with simple words with an example, imagine that you have a small house and your neiberhood want to kick you away and try to clame it with force. What you should do? You must take guns to protect your family.And the story continues...Maybe this should be better if Turkey come in European union and we will be consider as allies (and now they are allies with NATO but as I said before they pass our air borders and sea borders) the borders will be open and then we did not care so much to get guns. But other European countries does not support this idea (to be Turkey member of the Europian union, especialy Germany, France, Cyprous and Italy).Only Greece support them, and we will full support them if the promblem with Cyprous end.
Then other matter, we have found oil under our sea.'Cool' we said all. But the oil combanies with some 'strange' laws they did not let us to use it. (again sorry for my poor English). Then other thing all know that we have many fruits wich can sell to other countries. Nice we said all. Then come the Europian commision and said 'Hey, you can sell only this kilos of oranges(for example), the other you will not sell them not even to Greeks and you have to destroy them'. All of this matters make us to give priority to other thinks such as health system etc and then come the the matter of arcaiology. I do not speak without proofs, this things I know because some close friends of mine are archaiologists (some of them in Classical era, and some in Palaiolithic) and they are working in Ministry of Culture. Thats all my friend
And about your last thoughts, I did not say that other people stop us to complete our work in buildings, I said the 'situations', but again is mine fault of my missaderstood because of my poor English.
All of us want to see our buildings again as there are in the past. I hope this dream become real someday. Some of them there are ok. In Monembasia the old city is museum and many castles are hotels now. In Mystra the same. In Rhodos city the same. Patmos again the same, we have a nice Medieval Monastery there and thanks God we hope to see the castelo du Cerigo again with its formed glory at Cithira again, and Parthenon as I said before will be rebuild till '09, Delfis the same, and other places.
CU soon

Friendly
Velisarios

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...408781,00.html

Interesting article on the Christian community in Afghanistan. Seems that the "traditional culture" might have been more open.

This is terrible.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by latenight

If I jump out of the window on the tenth floor of a building, am I crazy?







What if that building is on fire? Am I still crazy?


Don't look now, but the building is burning.

I will tell you only this:
'The souls of youths are ruined from savage instics, those instics come to the surface from the dark tartarus of the humman nature with the support of the enemies of hummanity, some spiritual canibals which their leader is a crazy wolf called Nietzsche, a mummy who are like an old hag and is called Voltaire, a berserk Freud and a crowd of those vultures crows and bats.'

From 'Secret Flowers' page 112 Fotis Kontoglou