Christian convert faces death penalty in Afghanistan

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by dcmdale

Afghanistan is in conflict with international law and values regarding freedom of religion. Does the U.S./U.N. get to whack it?

International values should not bear any weight. International law, OTOH, is another thing - but I am not aware of any codified law stating that countries may not outlaw religions in their territories.

Considering values, if they are not already codified into law? What kind of morass would that not lead us into? If we are to act upon such a nebulous thing as uncodified opinion-sets, what would lead us when big parts of the population have diametrally different views?

Originally Posted by dcmdale

The reality of the situation is that this guy is dead.

Well, according to the BBC article that I read earlier today he is in custody, but alive. The article also hinted that the attorney was thinking whether he was mentally fit to stand trial - it seems that they are trying to get a solution which does not lose too much face. President Karzai had listened to various askings for clemency from western leaders, and seemed not rejecting them out of hand. However, the article stated that the average Afghani thought that the convert should be punished according to the letter of the law.

Originally Posted by dcmdale

When Christian missionaries tell people about Christ in these countries, they know that any converts they make will be dead as soon as they are found. Converts know that they are dead as soon as they are found. It is part of the package. In some of these countries, the missionaries know that they will be killed if they are caught preaching. That's part of the package too.

A testatment to human stiffheadedness, and refusal to do in Rome as Romans. I am utterly unimpressed.

Originally Posted by dcmdale

Sometimes they are still hunted when they make it back to the U.S.

Citations?

The converse is, however, happening: USA on occasion hunts for non-US people in their countries after they have made it back to their country, if they have broken US. law on (or even off) US. soil.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson


BTW: I hope that this guy´s life is spared, since I am in principle against the capital punishment. However, I find logical inconsistency and/or double standards exhibited by some people disheartening, but not surprising.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by gojujay

If he is put to death by the State, how will this change the USA's support for the Afghan government? Should we, as a people support a govt. that does not share the same fundemental beliefs as us?

Whether the US people support the Afghani govt is a bit beside the point - the important question is whether the US. Govt. supports the Afghani one! Anyway, the US. Govt have supported several less-than-perfect-democracies - including those which carry out capital punishment - before, so there is precedence. Sometime during the 80ies Saudi Arabia beheaded one of their own princesses for premarital sex, and that did not stop USA from supporting Saudi Arabia.

Note that various US. govt officials (No, I do not have links at hand right now) have stated stuff like (I cite from memory) "Afghanistan should be under the rule of law", "Afghanis should be free to decide their own matters" and similar stuff. Now, when the content of said laws become known to many, the backtracking begins.

Various European leaders have asked for clemency, but there there is consistency - leaders of those countries have been against capital punishment in all cases, and have not practiced it within their own borders. Yes, I am proud to be smug in this case.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!


International values should not bear any weight. International law, OTOH, is another thing - but I am not aware of any codified law stating that countries may not outlaw religions in their territories.

I will have to look it up for you, but, yes, freedom of religion is embodied in international law.

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Well, according to the BBC article that I read earlier today he is in custody, but alive.

He will either be executed by the state or killed by a lynch mob. I did not mean to imply that he is already dead, only that his fate is sealed.

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

A testatment to human stiffheadedness, and refusal to do in Rome as Romans. I am utterly unimpressed.

Your milage may vary. *I* am impressed. I think back to Galileo, Luther--people who are willing to take a stand for what they believe even though it is unpopular. Even when the consequences are death.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who believe one way or another simply because their society or group says so. I am a Christian. I have no respect for people who are uncritically Christians simply because that is the way that they grew up or because they have found a church, as a social group, that dictates their beliefs. I *do* respect people who choose not to believe Christianity because they don't believe that God exists (a precondition to Christianity) or because they choose not to love such a God if he does exist.

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Citations?

Personal knowledge.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I don't care about none of that since it's none of my business. Every region has its own solution to its problems.

As for the Jews? I'm not jewish.

Hitler came to power in 1932 and the war started in 1939. That's six years! If I was living in a place where everyone hated me and I was harrassed and threatened on a daily basis, my business boycotted and spray painted etc. It wouldn't take me six years to get the hint, it would take me about two and a half weeks to gether up my family and valuables and get the hell out of there.

You might benefit from studying history. The hows and whys of this particular piece of history are well documented.

Your response is also a red herring. Are you willing to state that all legal ethnic and religious "cleansings" are ok simply because there is a law saying that it can be done? That seems to be the force of your arguement.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

I will have to look it up for you, but, yes, freedom of religion is embodied in international law.

Try:

Article 18, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, G.A. res. 217A (III), U.N. Doc A/810(1948)

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

Your response is also a red herring. Are you willing to state that all legal ethnic and religious "cleansings" are ok simply because there is a law saying that it can be done? That seems to be the force of your arguement.

Yes. Every region has its own solutions. What they do is none of my concern. Their beliefs also have nothing to do with me since they weren't created by my people for me and with me in mind. I say this out of respect since I don't want anyone coming to my house and telling me what I should do.

The Afghanis have the right to do whatever they want to their own people in their own country.

[ReverseLunge]

dcmdale you talk too much. Why don't you go over there and do something about it?

The reason you are upset is because he is going to die because he is Christian right? So as a Christian fundamentalist why don't you go over there and try to help him somehow? Are you one of those chicken shiat fundies? Don't you have faith in your nutty Jewish God?

I don't even see why you have a problem with this dude getting whacked. Muslims and Christians are fundamentally the same in the aspect that safe and placid nothingness is promised to them as the heaven they reach by dying.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Yes.

I will let your answer speak for itself.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

Try:

Article 18, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, G.A. res. 217A (III), U.N. Doc A/810(1948)

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

What is this "International law" of which you speak? If a country chooses not to sign a treaty like the one you cite, then it isn't bound by it. And if it breaks or rejects such a treaty, then it is no longer bound by it. Nations are not governed by anything other than their own governments. Everything else is negotiation.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

What is this "International law" of which you speak? If a country chooses not to sign a treaty like the one you cite, then it isn't bound by it. And if it breaks or rejects such a treaty, then it is no longer bound by it. Nations are not governed by anything other than their own governments. Everything else is negotiation.

That sounds right to me. International law that I know about is more like copyright or patent violations stuff like that. The dude is just pissed off that Jesus got the thumbs down.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

dcmdale you talk too much.

You aren't the first to observe that.

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Why don't you go over there and do something about it?

I am not sure what "doing something about it" would be.

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

The reason you are upset is because he is going to die because he is Christian right? So as a Christian fundamentalist why don't you go over there and try to help him somehow? Are you one of those chicken shiat fundies? Don't you have faith in your nutty Jewish God?

1. I have not said that I am upset that he is going to die. I have said that I respect him for his stand.
2. I have said before that I am a fundie. Having cleaned many hen houses in my day, I know more than I like about "chicken shiat," but am not sure how that is relevant.
3. As is implied by #2, I have faith in God. I reject the "nutty" remark.

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I don't even see why you have a problem with this dude getting whacked. Muslims and Christians are fundamentally the same in the aspect that safe and placid nothingness is promised to them as the heaven they reach by dying.

I don't. Christians believe in heaven (although not "safe and placid nothingness," which would seem more an atheist view to me). We do not view life as something to be held on to.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

What is this "International law" of which you speak? If a country chooses not to sign a treaty like the one you cite, then it isn't bound by it. And if it breaks or rejects such a treaty, then it is no longer bound by it. Nations are not governed by anything other than their own governments. Everything else is negotiation.

International Law exists. The relationship between international law and national sovereignty is probably best characterized as "still evolving." Violations can be sanctioned, including an authorization to impose war, by the Security Council, although the effectiveness of that remedy can be questioned.

I cited international law because PeterGustafsson asked about it. The struggle between national sovereignty and international law is even seen in several recent U.S. Supreme Court cases. In any case, Afghanistan is a signatory and has not chosen to reject it. (Membership in the United Nations requires signing this particular treaty). The current government is struggling with its obligations under international law and its (U.S. imposed) constitution to respect freedom of religion and a conflicting provision in its constitution establishing Islamic law.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

I will let your answer speak for itself.

Christian Rules of Engagement.

10.AFTER CONQUERING A CITY, IF YOU FIND A DECENT LOOKING WOMAN UNDER ONE OF THOSE BEE KEEPER OUTFITS, MAKE HER YOUR SLAVE.

“And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14).
“And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. . . . And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods” (Numbers 31:7-9).


9.THOUGH INCONVENIENT, WHEN KILLING THE PEOPLE, BE SURE TO NOT TO HURT THEIR TREES (‘CAUSE THAT WOULD BE WASTEFUL).

“When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayeth eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man’s life) to employ them in the siege” (Deuteronomy 20:19).

8.DON’T STOP WITH KILLING THEIR SOLDIERS. RUB IT IN. DIP YOUR FEET IN THEIR BLOOD AND LET YOUR DOGS DRINK IT.

“But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same” (Psalms 68:21-23).

7.DON’T ANONYMOUSLY KILL BIN LADEN AND OMAR IN A BOMBING RAID. AFTER KILLING THEIR FOLLOWERS, PUBLICLY HANG THEM FOR ALL TO SEE.

“For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. . . . And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day. And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide” (Joshua 8:26-29).

6.GIVE THEM A TASTE OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE. CUT OFF THEIR HANDS AND FEET BEFORE HANGING THEM.

“And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron” (2 Samuel 4:12).

5.NEVER NEGOTIATE WITH THE ENEMY. KILL THEM, SHOWING NO MERCY AT ALL.

“And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them” (Deuteronomy 7:2).

4.DON’T BE A SISSY. HAVE NO COMPASSION FOR THESE NON-BELIEVERS. KILL THEM WHILE THEY’RE PRAYING IN CHURCH. KILL YOUNG AND OLD ALIKE, AND EVEN THOSE TOO FEEBLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

“But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand” (2 Chronicles 36:16-17).

3.DON’T JUST KILL THE HEATHENS. STEAL THEIR PROPERTY AND GIVE IT TO THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION.

“And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord”(Joshua 6:24).

2.DON’T WASTE MONEY ON P.O.W. CAMPS. THROW YOUR CAPTIVES OFF A CLIFF.

“And Amaziah said to the man of God, But what shall we do for the hundred talents which I have given to the army of Israel? And the man of God answered, The Lord is able to give thee much more than this. . . . And Amaziah strengthened himself . . . and smote the children of Seir ten thousand. And other ten thousand left alive did the children of Judah carry away captive, and brought them unto the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they all were broken in pieces” (2 Chronicles 25:9-12).

1.JUST REMEMBER THIS SIMPLE RULE: KILL EVERYTHING THAT BREATHES AND DESTROY EVERYTHING IN SIGHT.

“But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth” (Deuteronomy 20:16).
“Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city [of nonbelievers] with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (1 Samuel 13:15).

“And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jerico. Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: And the Lord delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel: and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it” (Joshua 10:29-30).

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***” (1 Samuel 15:3).

[Epee_Pox]

I think those are all Old Testament strictures. You may not have noticed, but Christians don't follow the laws of Moses and the other old-timers, even though those books in the Bible tell them to. The New Testament rules, which are much more forgiving and reject the ancient tendency to violence, tend to trump the old-time religion for most Christians.

[Aqua_volans]

why does'nt everybody just go atheist. that would solve the jewish problem, the christian problem, the mahometan problem, the islamonazi problem, the muslim problem and all the other religious problems.



(mahometans and islamonazis refer to the muslim extremists, and are a different category from our nice muslim friends. i hope.)

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Aqua_volans

why does'nt everybody just go atheist. that would solve the jewish problem, the christian problem, the mahometan problem, the islamonazi problem, the muslim problem and all the other religious problems.

Atheism is also a foreign religion that is based in the acceptance of Judeo-Middle Eastern theology. It is ineffective and fruitless to use logic to try to prove Judeo-Christianity wrong because Judeo-Middle Eastern theology is illogical. You must understand the history of Judeo-Christianity and it's ignoble roots in order to expose its lies. You cannot use logic to disprove blind faith.

The god of Abraham was invented as a quick fix to tame and control the desert slave workforce, to rob them of their potential. The Jewish slave masters who created this quick fix anticipated on being proved wrong, so Judeo-Middle Eastern theology evades all logic by making claims about a supernatural world, invisible forces, an omniscient and omnipotent cosmic entity, and a variety of effects and spiritual outcomes that are indemonstrable.

True spirituality is one's connection to life and the totality of all things. Reality.

[Aqua_volans]

atheism is not a religion. its a rejection of religion.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Aqua_volans

atheism is not a religion. its a rejection of religion.

That is the religious foundation of Atheism. No religion as a religion. To truly have no religion is to shut the fuk up.