Christian convert faces death penalty in Afghanistan

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Their culture is older than ours and it is still standing because of their laws.

I rather think it's still standing because nobody else wants that particularly miserable chunk of property. The Native American culture was as old or older than that of the Europeans that came to North America, but their laws didn't seem to help them much when it came to preserving their culture.

I am pretty sure that the middle east will survive longer than North America.

Quite possibly one of the stupidest things you've ever said. Unless one or the other explodes in a volcano or subsides into the sea, they should both survive equally long.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Morion

Actually Christanity pre-dates Islam by several hundred years.

Not talking about the religions. I'm talking about civilizations.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

That's right. Their region, their values, their laws. If their value system is in conflict with your then what you need to do is reject it by not going over there and not allowing their value systen to infect your community.

If a Westerner were to go around the streets of Afghanistan eating pork and gets arrested and whacked then thats how it should be too.

I'm not sure where your logic leads. Most Americans, I suspect, find your attitude highly offensive. Do they get to whack you?

Afghanistan is in conflict with international law and values regarding freedom of religion. Does the U.S./U.N. get to whack it?

I think that your position ultimately devolves into a "might makes right" position.

The reality of the situation is that this guy is dead. The only question is whether it is done by the state or not. When Christian missionaries tell people about Christ in these countries, they know that any converts they make will be dead as soon as they are found. Converts know that they are dead as soon as they are found. It is part of the package. In some of these countries, the missionaries know that they will be killed if they are caught preaching. That's part of the package too. Sometimes they are still hunted when they make it back to the U.S. People still go out on missionary trips and people still convert.

This guy isn't trying to avoid the consequences. The government is giving him every opportunity and he is not taking it.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

I'm not sure where your logic leads. Most Americans, I suspect, find your attitude highly offensive. Do they get to whack you?

If the law of the land asks for whacking then yes.

Afghanistan is in conflict with international law and values regarding freedom of religion. Does the U.S./U.N. get to whack it?

I think that your position ultimately devolves into a "might makes right" position.

The Taliban has been whacked, Iraq is being whacked and Iran will be whacked next.

Originally Posted by dcmdale

The reality of the situation is that this guy is dead. The only question is whether it is done by the state or not. When Christian missionaries tell people about Christ in these countries, they know that any converts they make will be dead as soon as they are found. Converts know that they are dead as soon as they are found. It is part of the package. In some of these countries, the missionaries know that they will be killed if they are caught preaching. That's part of the package too. Sometimes they are still hunted when they make it back to the U.S. People still go out on missionary trips and people still convert.

This guy isn't trying to avoid the consequences. The government is giving him every opportunity and he is not taking it.

Chrisitan Missionaries are brave heroes who go to foreign lands and force an imaginary Jewish being upon people.

Become a Christian Missionary!


"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Matthew 28:19,20

You Are Called On To Become a Christian Missionary!

We need you to join the ranks of Christians World Wide who are bringing Christ's word to peoples in South America, Asia and Africa. Many of these people don't know that they should feel guilty, and need to be forgiven for Original Sin. (Roman 5-7: Sin, like death, originated with Adam.) They think that they are happy!

You can insure employment for future generations of Christians who will be doing television fund raisers to help the poor in these countries.

From the earliest Christians, who improved the monuments of ancient Egypt, by carving our blessed cross over Egyptian hieroglyphs. It has been a Christian tradition to erase other cultures.

Your mission will be to go into under developed countries, teach them about Christ, and our Western ways. Help them to forget about their own cultures, and ways of living in harmony with nature.

In South America we receive large contributions to the Church from logging companies. This is for educating the indigenous people about Jesus, helping them to find new homes, making way for clear cut logging operations.

You can help them to abandon their native ways, move into city ghettos, and depend on handouts from Christian Charity to survive.

It only takes one generation for a people to lose an entire culture!

Think of the Glory to God as hundreds of Christians are working in Television studios, answering telephones, working in warehouses and shipping depots.

The future of Christianity depends on YOU!

Contemplate the thousands of people Christian Missionaries have already helped! Many of the native tribes in South America and South East Asia have never even heard of Christ. They are going through their lives as they have for hundreds of generations, supporting themselves. Not needing outside help. We must put an end to this outrage! These people need to be put on the rolls of people who cannot take care of themselves, they must depend on Christians for support.

Can you imagine a time when there will be no ads on TV to help the poor in under developed countries? Well, if you don't become a Christian Missionary this could happen in YOUR lifetime! Future generations of Christians depend on you!

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

I rather think it's still standing because nobody else wants that particularly miserable chunk of property. The Native American culture was as old or older than that of the Europeans that came to North America, but their laws didn't seem to help them much when it came to preserving their culture.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I see your point. America was never founded as a "melting pot" for the world's needy garbage, but instead was founded by Europeans for people of European descent.

Quite possibly one of the stupidest things you've ever said. Unless one or the other explodes in a volcano or subsides into the sea, they should both survive equally long.

Do you really think that Democracy and Capitalism will last forever? It's only been 200 odd years and it has already broke down to a point beyond repair. Capitalism/Democracy is pure selfish, ignorant opportunism without regard for the larger social consequences of personal action.

The only great civilization of the past still alive today is the Chinese Civilization. It is alive because it never died, unlike the Greeks, Babylonians, Egyptians, romans etc.

Chinese Civilization is alive and still going on because of the Confucian value system. Unlike the other great civilizations whose philosophies were about constantly moving forward and endless advancement, Confucius taught that only by strictly preserving the values of past can the future exist. The Chinese are amazing record keepers and they are speaking the same language that they have been speaking for 5500 years. Most of the culture and knowledge from the other ancient civilizations have been lost since those people were so busy digging their own graves with such advanced ideas as democracy and enlightenment. I'm sure this must sound even stupider then the things I have said before.

The solution is to tie this guy up and throw him into the river and be done with him. No need to even speak about him again.

[gojujay]

If he is put to death by the State, how will this change the USA's support for the Afghan government? Should we, as a people support a govt. that does not share the same fundemental beliefs as us?

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by gojujay

If he is put to death by the State, how will this change the USA's support for the Afghan government? Should we, as a people support a govt. that does not share the same fundemental beliefs as us?

No we shouldn't. We should be honest about what we are doing. We want some profit and cheap gas prices for the Summer.

[Aqua_volans]

hmmm. i'm thinking along the lines of 'crusade'

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

If the law of the land asks for whacking then yes.

The Taliban has been whacked, Iraq is being whacked and Iran will be whacked next.

Interesting... how far are you willing to take this logic?

The elimination of the Jews was ok, because it was authorized by the lawfully elected government? (and it was just as ok for the Allies to kill those that carried out those laws?) Bosnia? Armenia? Russia? Rwanda? Native Americans? American Slavery? How far are you willing to justify cruelty just because there is a legal justification?

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by JARS

Why is it that the Muslium religion is the only religion of any kind in the world that believes that if you don't have the same beliefs results in immediate capitol punishment.

Complete bull, nearly all the religions i know of have, at one point or another, persecuted those who do not carry their beleifs. Except maybe buddhism.

like:
spanish inquisition
crusades
salem witch trials
the holocaust (partly)
etc...

Islam happens to be generally interpreted in a conservative manner right now, but that's not because of the religion, it's because of the idiots interpreting it.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by Feltan

Neither can I; however in this Country both California and Massachussets are tending in that direction -- in fact any demonstration of any faith (unless in your bedroom closet with the lights off) is sure to draw censure of someone offended.

i don't know about california, but this isn't (so far as i know) true in massachusettes.


it IS true in france.

[Amadeus]

oh, yes, and my opinion.

if this trial goes through, and this man dies, we have failed in the middle east. It will show that no matter what we do, their beleifs are too deeply rooted to allow for a successful government to go through. They're going to have to learn the hard way that religious extremism only hurts.

it's not emphasized often in the news, but Iraqis aren't just blowing us up. they're attacking each other, too. Just a few weeks ago a sunni or shiite (i forget which, it doesn't really matter) mosque was blown up--prompting, of course, retalitory attacks across the country. there cannot be peace in the middle east until these people stop being intolerant, no matter what we do. And this trial shows that we can't stop their beleifs ourselves, we have to wait until they do it on their own.

*gets off his soapbox*

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by jBirch

It is precisely the "wingnut outliers" that you seem to think are representitive of the entire religion. You're essentially saying that Pat Robertson is representitive of all Christians.

Here is here I am having issues:

I have said on other discussions that I am a Christian fundamentalist. To me, real blasphemy is not when people who don't claim to be Christians make fun of God or mock my beliefs. Blasphemy is when people who claim to be Christians act in ways that cause non-believers to hold His name up to ridicule. You (and I) can think of plenty of examples. Those are the things that I feel shame about. I also don't feel threatened in saying that.

When I hear a few Islamic voices talking about the shameful behavior of "martyrs" and "freedom fighters," I hear of them being shouted down, of having to go into hiding, of being afraid for the their lives and silenced.

Certainly not all Muslims support what is being done in the name of their religon. Indeed, all of the Muslims that I know personally consider what is being done in the name of their religion as stupid. But when I read the mainline Islamic press and websites, I don't see that sense of shame.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

i don't know about california, but this isn't (so far as i know) true in massachusettes.


it IS true in france.

It isn't that bad (yet) in California either.

[jeff]

This will certainly put to the test the Koranic statement that "in religion there is no coercion", won't it.

I agree with the point that almost religions have done this in the past (eg: Inquisition, the various Catholic vs. Protestant or CoE wars in Europe), but we're now enlightened enough to consider that uncivilised, barbaric behavior - hence it's appropriate to consider that barbaric behavior when done by anyone today. Actually, it's supposed to be un-Islamic behavior (see my first sentence) but that doesn't seem to stop the fanatics.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

Interesting... how far are you willing to take this logic?

The elimination of the Jews was ok, because it was authorized by the lawfully elected government? (and it was just as ok for the Allies to kill those that carried out those laws?) Bosnia? Armenia? Russia? Rwanda? Native Americans? American Slavery? How far are you willing to justify cruelty just because there is a legal justification?

I don't care about none of that since it's none of my business. Every region has its own solution to its problems.

As for the Jews? I'm not jewish.

Hitler came to power in 1932 and the war started in 1939. That's six years! If I was living in a place where everyone hated me and I was harrassed and threatened on a daily basis, my business boycotted and spray painted etc. It wouldn't take me six years to get the hint, it would take me about two and a half weeks to gether up my family and valuables and get the hell out of there.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I wouldn't take me six years to get the hint, it would take me about two and a half weeks to gether up my family and valuables and get the hell out of there.

Or at least speak up, join together with the others who are being oppressed and ultimately fight back.

I never understood how come the sizeable jewish population in Europe didn't fight back. If there were six million to exterminate, that means there were at least a million to join up and fight. But instead they submitted to the rounding up and persecution and ultimate slaughter. How come? It's not as if that behavior is intrinsic to judaism -- look at how well Israel fights off those who would exterminate them.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

I never understood how come the sizeable jewish population in Europe didn't fight back. If there were six million to exterminate, that means there were at least a million to join up and fight. But instead they submitted to the rounding up and persecution and ultimate slaughter. How come? It's not as if that behavior is intrinsic to judaism -- look at how well Israel fights off those who would exterminate them.

they were dispersed throughout europe, which is a very large place. Now that they're concentrated in one place (israel), they are fighting back.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

Or at least speak up, join together with the others who are being oppressed and ultimately fight back.

That would take away from the time they could spend making money.