Those silly french folk

[Epee_Pox]

"It's spring, and the French are rioting again. This time, it's students and labor unions protesting a minor reform of the country's employment laws that was imposed to help solve the problems that spurred last fall's riots. If the protesters get what they want and the law is rescinded, the result will be continued high youth unemployment -- which will doubtless spur more riots. And that, Simba, is the Circle of Life in French politics"

-- editorial in the Los Angeles Times.




Gotta love it.

But seriously, I do understand that there is a cultural aspect of France, analogous to an aristocracy with a ruling class and a ruled population, in which the rulers are supposed to take care of the ruled. So the populace wants to be cared for and guaranteed various tangible and intangible things by the government. This is very difficult for an American to comprehend, in that we have a very different relationship with the government, which is there just to manage the stuff we can't do for ourselves, we're not entitled to anything from it, and our rights are protections AGAINST government rather than guarantees FROM government. Nevertheless, I think I do understand the essential cultural nature underlying the protests.

That said, how much sense do these protests make? I fail to see a rational basis for the demands. Can anyone enlighten me?

[RITFencing]

Unfortunately, instability and fast change seems to be part of the French political culture. Since Louix the XVI, I believe they've had around 20 different govenments, compared to the 2 that America has had since the the American Revolution, or the two that Britain has had (if you even count Cromwell's brief stint before being deposed by Charles II, returning England to its former governmental system) since there was a Britain.

[jBirch]

Here's the deal.

The French government, in an effort to increase youth employment, extended the amount of time that any young person is legally able to be "on probation" at their first place of work to 2 years. The employer may, for no reason whatsoever, terminate the youth employee's employment at any time within that 2 years and the employee has no recourse.

The labour unions are naturally irked at this because their newbies (apprentices, usually) are less protected from management abuse. The students in French colleges and universities are equally irked since it means that they are "on probation" for that extended period of time too. Plus, what else have students got to do in this lull before exams?

Equally naturally, the people who just want to get a job don't really care.

James.

[jeff]

As a Yank, I can't see that they have a basis to complain - it looks from here like a supreme case of 'sense of entitlement'. They don't seem to see the connection between 'hard to fire people' and 'reluctance to hire them in the first place'. If you hire somebody and they're useless, you're stuck with them - quite an incentive to only work with contractors or to send labor to other countries. This social contract also was cited as a contributor to the high unemployment in the ethnic slums that had so much recent rioting. A work system that's nice to be in once you get work, but otherwise not

Of course, we over here have plenty of silly things too, and in any case, people are used to what they're used to, and taking away something you already have always generates protest. But, still...

[Epee_Pox]

One of the reasons why unemployment of people actively seeking employment has reached Great Depression levels in France, is because once hired, it is nigh impossible to fire an employee.

It's a gentry/serf patron/client sort of old-Europe mentality, where employees are tied to their job and are owed a living for as long as they choose to remain.

The natural result is, when the average Jean sticks his neck out there as an entrepreneur to create a business, and when the board of a megacorporation sticks its neck out a bit to expand its operations, neither one wants to take on the risk of hiring someone who isn't going to be a perfect fit forever.

So on-the-job training becomes a rarity. It's too big a risk to hire someone who doesn't already have the skills you seek.

So entry-level jobs become harder to get.

And job mobility, already culturally low, becomes even more difficult. Which is a serious impediment to participation in a modern industrial/post-industrial economy.

And it becomes nigh impossible for fresh college graduates to get work.


This is not rocket science. And yet these same college graduates are rioting to preserve the very system that is keeping them out of work.

What exactly are they learning in school?

[Inquartata]

That French students are supposed to protest, riot and set up barricades over something or other periodically. Even if they don't really know why. It's an ingrained reflex.

[VELISARIOS]

Hello to all,
The French students has the right to react like this. The law which try the French goverment to be is the following. When you go to a job in a combany, the combany can fire you withiut give you any recoupment for this even after two years of work in this combany. I do not know how is the work system in your country but in Europe when someone fire you from a job he must give you recoupment for the years you have work. I do not understand yet why the French goverment want this. So the Franch students must react.

[jeff]

Velisarios, I'm afraid we have a language barrier problem here. Could you explain what you mean by recoupment?

[Morion]

I found a definition at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoupment

but it doesn't make any sense. I suspect he means compensation but the word got altered by an online translator.

[Zeca]

From the pov of a Brazilian who is trying to understand what a Greek has said in English, yes, I believe he meant compensation.

[jeff]

I guess we'll have to wait to hear from Velisarios to get an explanation then. Fun word, maybe we should make up a story that recoupement is a fencing term, something like a remise of a coupe of a derobement re-coupe-ment...

I assume that new employees in France - young are otherwise - are paid salaries, so it's not clear to me what compensation they are owed

[Epee_Pox]

This was a good article on it, especially the Q&A link. I guess what Veli's talking about might be a demand for a golden-parachute-type severance package?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4830974.stm

[needle]

Labor laws in many European countries tend to favor employees rather than employers.
From what I've been told, it's especially true for Germany and France.
Whereas in US an employee can be fired immediately (theoreticaly - reality often differs and it actually varies from state to state, but for the most part, it's like that), in Europe it's a much more complex process that takes time (mandatory advance notices, etc.) and money (employees are owed several months pay on termination, number of months depends on length of employment), there needs to be very solid cause for termination, etc.
It looks to me like these rules did not apply to people hired fresh out of college and that's why they are protesting.
Tell me where I'm wrong

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by Morion

I found a definition at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoupment

but it doesn't make any sense. I suspect he means compensation but the word got altered by an online translator.

Hello to all,
yes I fount this word from an online tranlation.
I mean the following,
when some one get a job and stay to this job for 1 year for example and then the company fire him the company give to him 1 year salary for his fire. This law try to stop the France goverment and the students goes angry. The France goverment want the following if someone fired, the combany give nothing to him.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

"It's spring, and the French are rioting again.
SNIP
-- editorial in the Los Angeles Times.

SNIP
That said, how much sense do these protests make? I fail to see a rational basis for the demands. Can anyone enlighten me?

Heavy snipping by me.
I think that you would be more enlightened if you read about French issues in French media, and take reports in US. media with a shaker of salt. The last few years I have seen a lot of slant/editorializing/lack of knowledge/just plain sloppiness when I have read US. media (except Newsweek) articles about non-USA countries. The anti-Frenchness can get quite nauseating at times.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Pauli]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Unfortunately, instability and fast change seems to be part of the French political culture. Since Louix the XVI, I believe they've had around 20 different govenments, compared to the 2 that America has had since the the American Revolution, or the two that Britain has had (if you even count Cromwell's brief stint before being deposed by Charles II, returning England to its former governmental system) since there was a Britain.

I don't think it's a good idea to compare the US - with a rather short history in time to a country such as France whose history has been quite influencing and goes way back!

And furthermore do I totally agree with Peter G.

[JARS]

Yeah but Britain has been around just as long as France.

The fact of the matter is that the French people just love protesting. They have always protested since the French Revolution. They will potest about anything no matter how large or small.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Hello to all,
yes I fount this word from an online tranlation.
I mean the following,
when some one get a job and stay to this job for 1 year for example and then the company fire him the company give to him 1 year salary for his fire. This law try to stop the France goverment and the students goes angry. The France goverment want the following if someone fired, the combany give nothing to him.

Hey Velisarios,

In North America, the common practice is to give 2 weeks pay in this situation. Even if an employee has been around for 10 years.

James.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Hello to all,
yes I fount this word from an online tranlation.
I mean the following,
when some one get a job and stay to this job for 1 year for example and then the company fire him the company give to him 1 year salary for his fire. This law try to stop the France goverment and the students goes angry. The France goverment want the following if someone fired, the combany give nothing to him.

Holy Cow! That's a huge severance pay... Most of what I've seen is around 1 week of pay for 1 year of experience with the company, but capped at like the equivalent of 3-6 months pay. And you usually don't get that until you've been at the company for a while -- there's a probationary period before the severance benefit kicks in. Most hourly folks typically get 1 or 2 weeks, max.

I mean, you hire someone just out of school with no experience, he stays a year and then economic conditions force a layoff. So then you have to pay another year of salary? Probably better to not hire him in the first place..

[Gav]

Severance pay is not the issue. Immediate dismissal is.

Redundancy being different from Dismissal after all ...