Those silly french folk

[Gav]

I've already replied with a summary of what the issues are (further up). I have no real opinion on this.

In my opinion it's a matter for the French. It's up to them to decide what kind of country they want, what they value, and how their youth would like to see the future. They are not like Americans or we Brits (or even we Scots and we have a much closer set of links than most). I find the sniping and backhand comments irritating. Who are you, or me, to criticise them? In fact I would argue that our respective countries populace do not stand up to 'Big Gov' often enough. I find it interesting, and reassuring, that the people in one country have the passion (even if it is only self interest) to stand up for what they believe; rather than sitting at home and letting things wash over their apathy.
The BBC's coverage of this has been quite good and I have read and watched regular debates between both sides. It's this kind of journalism that allows you to take a step back and empathise with the situation on the ground.

Is it really so hard for the people of the US to consider the protestors views?

And, by the way, the French have their own news outlets. They may look at BBC news (it is one of the most popular on the net after all) but I bet they are exposed to a lot more french news information.

[lochinvar]

Well said. I stand abashed.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by lochinvar

Is this the time someone says: "...and France surrenders."?

It would be most becoming if americans in general would produce less sniping, and derogatory remarks, against the country that came to the aid of George Washington with navy, guns and men.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

It would be most becoming if americans in general would produce less sniping, and derogatory remarks, against the country that came to the aid of George Washington with navy, guns and men.

This is sort of like a stranger trying to intervene in a family squabble. Don't try it. France and America are strong allies who love to snipe at each other -- it goes both ways, and our criticisms are strong because our closeness and affection are strong. If the French didn't care, they wouldn't shout so loudly against Americans. And if Americans didn't care, they wouldn't poke so much fun at the French. But the fact is they have strong ties, and if an outsider tries to butt in, they're going to get (at best) a cold sneer from both.

To Americans, France is indeed the Marquis de Lafayette, the victory at Yorktown, the Louisiana Purchase, the Statue of Liberty, who we fought next to in WWI, who we gladly sacrificed so much to liberate in WWII. Our firm allies in the Cold War, our favorite cousins to visit when abroad, the people whose language we WANT to learn (as opposed to the ones we OUGHT to).

And France is also our enemy from the French & Indian wars who first threatened our colonies. France supported the rebellion in our Civil War, and took advantage of the situation to establish a bad puppet regime in Mexico from which they've never recovered. France is the country that let the world down by giving in to Hitler almost without a fight, who became a bitter "post-modern" people baffled and unable to deal with their fall from "great power" to inconsequence. We liberated them, and they spat in our eye. France is the reason we got stuck in Vietnam. France is the country that refused to let US military airplanes fly through their airspace to accomplish missions. France may have been an ally in the Cold War, but they never took sides decisively, and in trying to prove that they still mattered managed to routinely insult the one country that still thought so. And France is the obstructionist regime that blocks any American initiative, willing to let insane thugs butcher a country and their neighbors rather than intervene, because as Villepin said "Nothing justifies envisaging military action." France is the country that came closest to picking up the torch of liberty, and blew it, reverting to the paternal aristocratic culture that persists to this day. More than just an irritant on the sidelines, France actively tries to prevent America from doing what it thinks is right and just.

And America? Anti-Americanism is a cherished and deep part of French culture. Since at least the 1800s, Anti-Americanism has been the only common consensus between left and right, among all social classes, in French society. Bernard-Henri Levy said "I know French anti-Americanism well. A phobic hatred of America conceived of as a region, not of the world, but of being -- almost of the soul lodged in the heart of my country's culture." But at the same time, polls routinely show that America always ranks #1 or #2 among French people's favorite countries. Why?

America is arrogant. We think -- hey, this works for us, we've figured it all out, so you ought to do it our way. We never shut up about having liberated France in two world wars. We expect the French to speak our language when we visit, and excuse this with myths that the French get pissy if we try to speak their language. We think that France's interests in the world MUST BE the same as our interests, and we react with disproportionate shock and offendedness when France politely but firmly points out that they have another point of view. Americans can be mean -- we would get very upset to see a big powerful country making fun of a smaller less powerful country, and then we go ahead and do it to France all the time. Americans can be blind -- our foreign policy is just as realpolitik as France's, and just as altruistic, but we loudly proclaim only our altruism. And we are unjust: we have racial problems, violence in the streets, a death penalty, unjustifiable inequality, and an imperialistic drive to impose our will on the rest of the world without listening to other peoples.

But at the same time, America is a strong economic partner who shares business and technology. America is the friend who comes in aid. America is the friendly tourists who come to admire and love the wonders of France. America tries to do good -- sometimes strangely, and with mixed results, but their heart is in the right place.

We have big big differences -- France is a top-down authoritarian country where social harmony and predictability are valued while initiative and self-determination are barely tolerated, where civic responsibility never crosses one's mind because you've paid the state to do it for you. The USA is a bottom-up populist country where individuals have rights but also responsibilities to protect the rights of others, where initiative and risk-taking are valued and relying on the state is looked down upon.

But those differences are not as big, nor as strong, as the ties that bind us. So we will continue sniping at each other for a long time, like quarreling siblings. Don't pay us any attention, and don't butt in.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

It would be most becoming if americans in general would produce less sniping, and derogatory remarks, against the country that came to the aid of George Washington with navy, guns and men.

And for which we gratefully paid them back by pulling their Gallic chestnuts out of the Germanic fire.

Twice.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by Gav

Who are you, or me, to criticise them? In fact I would argue that our respective countries populace do not stand up to 'Big Gov' often enough. I find it interesting, and reassuring, that the people in one country have the passion (even if it is only self interest) to stand up for what they believe; rather than sitting at home and letting things wash over their apathy.

There is such a thing as an objective analysis. From which one can draw reasoned conclusions about the effects of decisions made.

In the case of France, as with Italy and (to a lesser extent) Germany, there are actual economic classes. And there is a large class of people who are used to long-term economic security with minimal risk. They have jobs, which are pretty much permanent, with very generous pensions waiting for them afterwards. They are strongly opposed to anything that would change this setup.

But it is objectively acknowledged by economists of all stripes that this very system is a primary cause of France's economic woes, high unemployment, and the slowly building rock-crusher pressures of globalization. France MUST change this system, or the people demanding security will suffer even more.

There is also a political class. And politics in these countries is too unstable for the political class to be able to stick to its guns. Compared to the USA and the UK, the politics of France and Italy (and to a lesser extent Germany) are remarkably unstable. Governments lack the very security and permanence that the citizens demand for themselves.

So politicians cannot presume that they have any mandate, and cannot "do the right thing" in the face of popular opposition. It would be political suicide not only to their own administration, but to any following government that would need to implement the same policies.

And this turns into a catch-22. When governments will always back down before popular opposition, necessary change will be delayed and delayed until change forces itself on the country, with foreseeably greater disaster for those affected -- and people know this, so they put even less trust in their governments, and live in even greater fear that their pensions won't be there when they retire.

Small changes now are intolerable -- minor employment flexibility in France, minor raising of the retirement age in Italy result in mass rage and backlash. But unless small changes are made now, huge changes will come later that will be much harsher. The short-sightedness of the populations is understandable, and the reluctance of governments to act unpopularly is understandable, but "understandable" does not equal "right."

[Dr. Pfleschbach]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!




It would be most becoming if americans in general would produce less sniping, and derogatory remarks, against the country that came to the aid of George Washington with navy, guns and men.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

I have nothing against the French. It's just that they just provide such good ammunition for satire. At least they aren't scary like us Americans (except for some of their food).

[Inquartata]

Epee Pox, several very cogent and well-argued posts there. Pity I cannot rep you for substantive things instead of for witticisms, but that's me in a nutshell.

[rcmatthews]

While I respect the viewpoints of the protestors, I disagree with the methods they used to achieve their goals. Barricading schools and roads is not an acceptable form of protest.

It is hard to argue the facts that France has massive youth unemployment and a great amount of civil unrest. I believe that these latest protest are more an expression of overall dissatisfaction with the government. I can't pretend to understand a lot of why it is this way. It seems to me that the law would in fact cause employers to be more willing to take a risk with young employees.

My viewpoint is that of an American who loves France and French culture, but I am of very libertarian political persuasion, so I don't think the French way of governing is very effective.

[Dr. Pfleschbach]

An essayist on NPR pointed out that the protesters are basically demanding job security for their first jobs after finishing school and asked why would anyone want that? My first job was pumping gas, so I could see his point. If French youth are so risk-averse they should be good candidates for jobs in the insurance industry. Instead of protesting in France maybe they should consider immigating to the US and putting down roots in Hartford, Conn.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

This is sort of like a stranger trying to intervene in a family squabble. Don't try it.

I have pointed it out on numerous occasions before here on f.net (previous time yesterday!), but I guess that I will have to do it again:

I am not a "stranger" in this respect. I am a USA (and Swedish also, for that matter) citizen.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

France and America are strong allies who love to snipe at each other -- it goes both ways, and our criticisms are strong because our closeness and affection are strong.

Which would make it even more unbecoming - do not take family squabbles into public! What manners were you taught as a kid?

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

France is the reason we got stuck in Vietnam.

USA took on that fight on its own accord - France did not drag a kicking and screaming USA onto that battlefield.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

We expect the French to speak our language when we visit, and excuse this with myths that the French get pissy if we try to speak their language.

When I visited the France-Lame shop in Paris, I asked the saleswoman in my near-nonexistent French if she could speak English. When the answer was no, I asked if German would do. When we found out that we had no language in common, she held the shop open an extra 30 minutes past closing time to compensate for linguistic problems. I was the only customer at the time.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

We think that France's interests in the world MUST BE the same as our interests, and we react with disproportionate shock and offendedness when France politely but firmly points out that they have another point of view.

The cardinal sin of USA, as seen by others. Unwillingness, or inability, to see that others have other legitimate interests.

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

We have big big differences -- France is a top-down authoritarian country where social harmony and predictability are valued while initiative and self-determination are barely tolerated, where civic responsibility never crosses one's mind because you've paid the state to do it for you.

An "authoritarian" country with general elections, and regular changes of the parties at helm? A country which has had two sets of riots in a few months - "social harmony"? An "authoritarian" country where rioters are not killed by the police by the dozens?

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

Don't pay us any attention, and don't butt in.

I will butt in as much as I please.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by lochinvar

And for which we gratefully paid them back by pulling their Gallic chestnuts out of the Germanic fire.

Twice.

To which the honorable response would be:
"You are ingrates, and as such not worthy of any further help, should you be in need."

No need for this low-level sniping, it is only demeaning to those who do it.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson