Those silly french folk

[Pauli]

Originally Posted by JARS

Yeah but Britain has been around just as long as France.

The fact of the matter is that the French people just love protesting. They have always protested since the French Revolution. They will potest about anything no matter how large or small.

Different cultures............
From "birth" on different cultures. And of course a whole different regime.....

[Gav]

Also: if you read the Q&A section of the BBC news site (and I don't speak french so I have to rely on it in this case) the problem with unemployment in France is employment turnover - young employees cannot get a permanent job. Thus at any given time you take a snapshot there are a lot of unemployed people. Making it easier to fire these kids is not necessarily going to make it easier to get the jobless totals down. This is what the critics say.

Additionally anyone who quotes UK as an example of a "good" european country is woefully misinformed. The employment statistics are extremely controversially compiled. While actual employment rates are undoubtably higher than the big euro countries of France and Germany; the number of people who are actually out of work is higher than the 'official' figures.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by Gav

Additionally anyone who quotes UK as an example of a "good" european country is woefully misinformed. The employment statistics are extremely controversially compiled. While actual employment rates are undoubtably higher than the big euro countries of France and Germany; the number of people who are actually out of work is higher than the 'official' figures.

Ditto for the USA. We don't count people who haven't self-identified and told the government that they are actively seeking work but haven't yet found it. We don't count people who are incarcerated and therefore cannot work. We don't count pepople who are disabled and cannot work. People who are on Social Security disability don't get counted (the government basically buying people out of the unemployment stats). We don't count people serving in the military, under 15, or in nursing homes.

It is unknown how significantly any of these factors affect the unemployment numbers.

Also, the figures aren't real-number counts, but are statistically derived from samples of the population that don't include the various people who aren't counted. The confidence and significance of the statistical samples are good enough for government work, but the numbers aren't precise.

Also, it is difficult to adequately compare unemployment rates between different times in history, because what's being sampled varies, labor market forces change, and other economic factors such as inflation and changes in proportions of defined populations that participate in the labor market.

And it's very difficult to compare numbers from country to country, because everyone measures things differently.

That said, the US figure is a workable number that gives us a basic idea of the state of the labor market for noninstitutionalized civilians.

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Hey Velisarios,

In North America, the common practice is to give 2 weeks pay in this situation. Even if an employee has been around for 10 years.

James.

Only two weeks?

[VELISARIOS]

Yesterday I was listen from the TV news that Germany has similar problem (most serius than France) and studends and workers react immidiately.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Only two weeks?

Depends on the company and work you do with them. The company I'm with now its 1 week for every year, up to 26 weeks.

For lower level hourly workers it can be 1 week. Or if you're on a less-than-ful- time irregular schedule, nothing.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by VELISARIOS

Only two weeks?

In many cases, not even that.

It varies from state to state and from company to company.

In Michigan, we have what is called "at-will" employment--either party can terminate the employment without having to give cause or compensation.

If you can make a case for termination due to illegal discrimination, you can fight it in the courts if you want--and if you have deep enough pockets. Otherwise, you just take what the company gives you.

[needle]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

In Michigan, we have what is called "at-will" employment--either party can terminate the employment without having to give cause or compensation.

Same in California. Companies here have been known to give anywhere between nothing and two-three months pay during the massive layoffs in 2001.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

That French students are supposed to protest, riot and set up barricades over something or other periodically.

This is the major reason why London has so many quaint original cobblestone streets and Paris so few--they tore up most of them to build barricades... (Also the reason Napoleon redrew the street system for broad boulevards--to give his cannon better fields of fire in the event of Parisian rioting.)

[VELISARIOS]

Originally Posted by Larrison

Depends on the company and work you do with them. The company I'm with now its 1 week for every year, up to 26 weeks.

For lower level hourly workers it can be 1 week. Or if you're on a less-than-ful- time irregular schedule, nothing.

Only the shiping combanies has this system and only for sailors. The other combanies has the system which I told you. The difference is that a sailor has a great salary than a man who work in a city.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

In many cases, not even that.

Some of the worst cases involve "contract employees." You work at one company, but are officially employed by another. Some contractors work "at" a company for years and then get a call at 6 a.m. telling them not to go in because their contract has been terminated. The company that "employs" them still employs them, but doesn't have to pay them because they aren't actively working.

Many companies load up on contractors for precisely that reason. No severance. No reasons need to be given for ending the contract. No lawsuits for discrimination.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by dcmdale

Some of the worst cases involve "contract employees." You work at one company, but are officially employed by another. Some contractors work "at" a company for years and then get a call at 6 a.m. telling them not to go in because their contract has been terminated. The company that "employs" them still employs them, but doesn't have to pay them because they aren't actively working.

Many companies load up on contractors for precisely that reason. No severance. No reasons need to be given for ending the contract. No lawsuits for discrimination.

Yep -- and in most cases, the contract employees get a *higher* hourly wage than a full-time employee. The reason is, the contract employee has to pay their own benefits, unemployment insurance, retirement etc. The employeer of the contract employe may find that it is cheaper overall to hire them anyway, depending upon their overhead structure and their need to pay into things like pension plans, severance packages, etc. If you have a urgent need for short term employees, its an option..

I will note that under a couple of high profile legal cases in the last couple of years (Microsoft for one), that if you hire "temporary, short term" contract employees and keep them working for years, an employer can be liable for substantial severance and other costs. The courts have ruled that doing so essentially makes them your full-time employees and they have all the rights of that, no matter the wording in the individual employment contracts.

http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Jul/1/127294.html

http://library.findlaw.com/2000/Feb/1/127759.html

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by Larrison

I will note that under a couple of high profile legal cases in the last couple of years (Microsoft for one), that if you hire "temporary, short term" contract employees and keep them working for years, an employer can be liable for substantial severance and other costs. The courts have ruled that doing so essentially makes them your full-time employees and they have all the rights of that, no matter the wording in the individual employment contracts.

Absolutely. As long as there are lawyers, you have to keep on your feet. I know most high-tech companies made changes to their contract employee policies to try and make sure that it didn't happen again. (Didn't stop them from using contract labor though. ).

[Epee_Pox]

Insightful commentary in today's Times of London:

===

The sight of millions of Frenchmen, predominantly young, demonstrating in deep sympathy and solidarity with themselves, is one that will cause amusement and satisfaction on the English side of the Channel. Everyone enjoys the troubles of his neighbours...

Whether they know it or not, the people on the streets in France were demonstrating to keep the [predominantly Muslim] youth of the banlieues -- who recently so amused the world for an entire fortnight with their arsonist antics -- exactly where they are, namely hopeless, unemployed and feeling betrayed. For unless the French labor market is liberalized, they will never find employment and therefore integration into French society.

You have only to speak to a few small businessmen or artisans in France -- the petits bourgeois so vehemently despised by the snobbish intellectuals -- to find out why this should be so. The French labor regulations make employment of untried persons completely uneconomic for them

[rcmatthews]

Wow, you would likely never see an article in the majority of US newspapers as eloquently composed as that.

[Epee_Pox]

So the French government caved, and gave in completely. All I have to say to that is...



HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!! Oh man! (wiping a tear and holding my belly from laughing so hard) They're so doomed.

[lochinvar]

Is this the time someone says: "...and France surrenders."?

[Gav]

I get the distinct impression, from reading the comments from across the pond, that you don't have any idea of what it's like: to be french, to live in france, to be part of the French economy or even any idea of Europe beyond what Fox News likes to feed you.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

So the French government caved, and gave in completely. All I have to say to that is...



HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!! Oh man! (wiping a tear and holding my belly from laughing so hard) They're so doomed.

I think that you actually have no idea of what the matter was all about, really.
(Hint: It was not about money. )



To the youth of France: congrats on gaining democratic rights and equal justice!

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by Gav

I get the distinct impression, from reading the comments from across the pond, that you don't have any idea of what it's like: to be french, to live in france, to be part of the French economy or even any idea of Europe beyond what Fox News likes to feed you.

No more than the French have an idea of what it's like to live in and be part of the US economy beyond what the BBC likes to feed them.

We all see the world through our own lense. Many of the issues we struggle with the French shrug their shoulders at; many of the issues the French struggle with leave us scratching our heads.

I do not understand how this crisis developed, or why. I only know what I can see through the lense of my own experience, and from here it looks very much like a tempest in a teapot.