National refs and coaching on the strip.

[notalent]

So I was reffing at Reno this weekend and had a student. . She made the 4 in D3 WS and I had just been released and wanted to coach when I was given the "We can't coach we can't cheer" lecture from the FOCs. I was ok with this till I walked over to watch the match and saw another ref still in uniform in the coaching box. I had already got the ASU coach to help Tiffany out, so I called to the other ref and reminded him that we weren't allowed to coach. He sheepishly joined me outside the sportszone. and we watched the match his girl lost partialy because she didn't have her coach. So was I wrong to call out the other ref? Tiffany went on to win the event and the other ref was the first person to shake my hand.

[Damon Scaggs]

Just in case there is any question about this being considered wrong, here is the relevant section from the referee's code of ethics:

• Referees are representative of the body conducting the competition and, therefore, must not consider themselves associated with any country, club or individual during the competition.

• Referees are present at the competition solely to officiate; it is inappropriate to coach or assist athletes during the competition.

The full text of the code of ethics is availabe here.

[darius]

I had already got the ASU coach to help Tiffany out, so I called to the other ref and reminded him that we weren't allowed to coach.

Would you have talked to the coaching referee if they had initially gotten rid of the uniform (lose the jacket and tie, put on a club warmup)? How about if it was just a random bout and your fencer wasn't involved?

Edit: I'm not being accusatory; I'm actually just curious about the motivations. And if I had a question about something like that, I'd prolly seek guidance directly from my favorite FOC, not post about it on f.net.

darius

[notalent]

Greetings Damon,
I don't feel bad about asking him to join me outside the sports zone. I more wonder about getting a fellow coach to help me out, while taking the other girls coach out of the equation. Tiffany is 19 and has been at this for three years her opp. was 14 and certainly needed her coach more than Tiffany needed me. Mostly because he a much better coach than I am.

Just in case there is any question about this being considered wrong, here is the relevant section from the referee's code of ethics:



The full text of the code of ethics is availabe here.

[keith]

Greetings Damon,
I don't feel bad about asking him to join me outside the sports zone. I more wonder about getting a fellow coach to help me out, while taking the other girls coach out of the equation. Tiffany is 19 and has been at this for three years her opp. was 14 and certainly needed her coach more than Tiffany needed me. Mostly because he a much better coach than I am.

well if you are worried about the whether your actions were ethically pure (rather than just in agreement with the rules) then I guess it comes down to; whether it occured to you before you called out the other coach/ref that such an action would benefit your fencer?

[tbryan]

So I was reffing at Reno this weekend and had a student. . She made the 4 in D3 WS and I had just been released and wanted to coach when I was given the "We can't coach we can't cheer" lecture from the FOCs.

I thought that they generally permitted you to coach if you had been released, removed your jacket and tie, and maybe covered your slacks with warm ups. Just because you refereed earlier that day doesn't make you unelligible to coach for the rest of the day after you are released, does it?

I agree that it is inappropriate for someone in full referee uniform to be in a coach's box. It just looks bad, if nothing else. I have no problem if that same person will no longer be refereeing bouts later that day and switches into coaching mode (and clothes).

I'd love to hear an official ruling from the FOC and national bout committee on whether a referee may coach once he is released by the bout committee for the day.

[Ordway]

well if you are worried about the whether your actions were ethically pure (rather than just in agreement with the rules) then I guess it comes down to; whether it occured to you before you called out the other coach/ref that such an action would benefit your fencer?

I don't think that's a necessary precondition to that action being ethical. I think it's the coach's responsibility to be on the lookout for the best interests of his/her student. Making sure that the opponent doesn't have coaching that's against the rules would fall into the category of making sure your fencer was getting a fair shot. You had no way of knowing that the opponent wouldn't have a "backup" coach (experienced teammate) to step in, instead of the referee/coach.

[keith]

I don't think that's a necessary precondition to that action being ethical. I think it's the coach's responsibility to be on the lookout for the best interests of his/her student. Making sure that the opponent doesn't have coaching that's against the rules would fall into the category of making sure your fencer was getting a fair shot. You had no way of knowing that the opponent wouldn't have a "backup" coach (experienced teammate) to step in, instead of the referee/coach.

Oh I agree, but I suspect that notalent is looking for absolution beyond; "You acted in accordance with the rules & regulations, and its their lookout if they didn't"

[notalent]

Greetings Keith,
My exact words were "If I can't coach you can't either". At the time I was only objected to his being able to coach, and me not being able too. It was afterwords that I thought about the coaching implications.

well if you are worried about the whether your actions were ethically pure (rather than just in agreement with the rules) then I guess it comes down to; whether it occured to you before you called out the other coach/ref that such an action would benefit your fencer?

[jBirch]

Notalent,

I used to worry about this sort of thing until I had an international coach (that I really admire and respect) point out that had you let the other coach/ref stay and coach, you were doing your fencer a disservice. If you had not called out the other coach, you would be un-ethical.

As he used to say, "if you feint and your opponent parries, you shouldn't feel bad about disengaging."

You did the right thing by calling the other coach out.

James.

[oiuyt]

I thought that they generally permitted you to coach if you had been released, removed your jacket and tie, and maybe covered your slacks with warm ups. Just because you refereed earlier that day doesn't make you unelligible to coach for the rest of the day after you are released, does it?

Generally permitted, yes. Ineligible to coach that day? Also yes.

How strictly this in enforced depends on a) the coach/referee in question, b) the specific assigner in charge and any other FOCs working the tournament. I have certainly been at NACs where I was explicitly told NOT to coach after being released as a referee and told (without prompting or a question on my part) that changing attire would not change that ruling. Personally I think this is the rule that SHOULD be enforced at all times. I just wished that it WERE uniformly enforced.

If you are there as a tournament official then that is your role for the entire day. Being released, taking off a blazer, throwing on warm-ups, putting on a Groucho Marx mask, or other such dodges doesn't and shouldn't change that. I see the increasing enforcement of this idea an instance of the growing professionalism in the USFA.

-B

[keith]

Greetings Keith,
My exact words were "If I can't coach you can't either". At the time I was only objected to his being able to coach, and me not being able too. It was afterwords that I thought about the coaching implications.

In which case, three advance lunges and a ballestra fleche should be sufficient. No need to mortify the flesh.

[Mr Epee]

As an official, and therefore a physical representation of the competition's impartiality, I would absolutely request that a referee be removed from the coaching box. It would make no difference whether the bout contained a member of my home club, because officially a working referee has no home club.

It would be ethically wrong to select a specific situation in which you would act to have a referee removed. Consistent correct behavior is the key.

Also, in my opinion, taking off a jacket does not constitute an absence of duty for working referees to maintain impartiality as spectators, and especially as coaches. The individual is still a known representative, and has travel and housing paid for by the tournament organizers.

[notalent]

Greetings tbryan,
I asked about coaching after I had been released, and got the lecture then. I was all set take of jacket and tie and don my USC fencing jacket. They nixed that idea.

I thought that they generally permitted you to coach if you had been released, removed your jacket and tie, and maybe covered your slacks with warm ups. Just because you refereed earlier that day doesn't make you unelligible to coach for the rest of the day after you are released, does it?

I agree that it is inappropriate for someone in full referee uniform to be in a coach's box. It just looks bad, if nothing else. I have no problem if that same person will no longer be refereeing bouts later that day and switches into coaching mode (and clothes).

I'd love to hear an official ruling from the FOC and national bout committee on whether a referee may coach once he is released by the bout committee for the day.

[notalent]

At my age that pennace would mortify the flesh

In which case, three advance lunges and a ballestra fleche should be sufficient. No need to mortify the flesh.

[tbryan]

Also, in my opinion, taking off a jacket does not constitute an absence of duty for working referees to maintain impartiality as spectators, and especially as coaches. The individual is still a known representative, and has travel and housing paid for by the tournament organizers.

But the boundary for that is one day? What if I'm accepted to referee for just one or two days at a national event? I assume that no one would have a problem with me coaching on the days when I'm not refereeing at all.

I suppose I can understand why I wouldn't be allowed to coach after I've been released. I guess that the FOC needs to maintain the appearance that none of the officials who were involved that day had any stake or interest in the outcome of that day's events.

Interesting.

[tbryan]

Greetings tbryan,
I asked about coaching after I had been released, and got the lecture then. I was all set take of jacket and tie and don my USC fencing jacket. They nixed that idea.

Thanks. I'll have to keep that in mind during Nationals week. Make sure that I'm not refereeing on any of the days that I'll need to be coaching.

BTW, in this case, you were absolutely in the clear in calling out the other coach. As a referee, I think that you have a duty to remind the other referees of their responsibilities when they forget. Really, the ref on strip should have prevented it. But even in the case where you were just there as a coach, you could have had the bout committee or FOC rep notified and had the other referee/coach, removed from the coach's box. Those are the rules. As a coach, I'd say that it's your job to make sure that your own fencer has a "fair and by the rules" bout. Some fencers could be rattled by seeing another referee in their opponent's coach's box, for example.

Of course, you shouldn't feel bad in any case. According to Inq, the presence or absence of a coach on strip never makes a difference in the outcome of the bout.

[Inquartata]

Finally, someone speaks sense!

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I was actually talking to one of the FOCs about this, and she said that it was fine if you just went and changed, then you were in the clear to coach. I guess it depends on who you ask.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Of course, you shouldn't feel bad in any case. According to Inq, the presence or absence of a coach on strip never makes a difference in the outcome of the bout.

Well, as he said, it didn't actually make a difference, because, even though he wasn't coaching his student she still won the gold.