National refs and coaching on the strip.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

I was actually talking to one of the FOCs about this, and she said that it was fine if you just went and changed, then you were in the clear to coach. I guess it depends on who you ask.

I think it depends on whether the FOC is blond or has dark hair.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

Well, as he said, it didn't actually make a difference, because, even though he wasn't coaching his student she still won the gold.

In fairness I feel constrained to note that he'd asked another coach to fill in for him, so his student DID get coaching---just not his. I don't know whether her opponent's coach had someone else take over and coach her or not...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

Well, as he said, it didn't actually make a difference, because, even though he wasn't coaching his student she still won the gold.

In fairness I feel constrained to note that he'd asked another coach to fill in for him, so his student DID get coaching---just not his. I don't know whether her opponent's coach had someone else take over and coach her or not. If not, then there's a case to be made for at least the appearance of coaching having helped...

However, I will still argue that two coaches arriving at the startling conclusion that coaching helps and that it's lack hurts is to be taken with a grain or two of salt.

[Feltan]

Thanks for this discussion folks.

It is yet another reason to remind me why I never ever want to be a referee.

Regards,
Feltan

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Feltan

Thanks for this discussion folks.

It is yet another reason to remind me why I never ever want to be a referee.

I never really wanted to be a referee, but as one of the more experienced fencers, they kept asking me to referee (out of pools, etc.) at local events. I figured that I should probably learn the rules better if I were going to be directing that often. That way, when someone starts to complain or argue, I feel like I have the knowledge and experience just to think "wrong" and say "Fencers, please come on guard."

[notalent]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I think it depends on whether the FOC is blond or has dark hair.

Greetings fencerbill,
It was one of each

[notalent]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

In fairness I feel constrained to note that he'd asked another coach to fill in for him, so his student DID get coaching---just not his. I don't know whether her opponent's coach had someone else take over and coach her or not. If not, then there's a case to be made for at least the appearance of coaching having helped...

However, I will still argue that two coaches arriving at the startling conclusion that coaching helps and that it's lack hurts is to be taken with a grain or two of salt.

Greetings Inquartata,
I never claim that my coaching helps though my kids claim it does. It may just be a placebo effect. I joke that coaching basicaly comes down to saying "Its not working change" when they are behind and "Its working dont change" when they are ahead

[KD5MDK]

And that's something fencers sometimes need to hear.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Generally permitted, yes. Ineligible to coach that day? Also yes.

How strictly this in enforced depends on a) the coach/referee in question, b) the specific assigner in charge and any other FOCs working the tournament. I have certainly been at NACs where I was explicitly told NOT to coach after being released as a referee and told (without prompting or a question on my part) that changing attire would not change that ruling.

OTOH, I've known refs who's report times and release times were changed so that they could coach.

Part of it probably depends on level. they're not going to berate an international ref about that, lest he/she decide that if forced to choose he/she would rather coach.

-m

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by notalent

I joke that coaching basicaly comes down to saying "Its not working change" when they are behind and "Its working dont change" when they are ahead

Meh, if they can't figure that out for themselves, do they deserve to win?

But there's a whole 'nuther thread on that topic. No need to rehash it all on this one.

[Kenji]

Originally Posted by notalent

I never claim that my coaching helps though my kids claim it does. It may just be a placebo effect. I joke that coaching basicaly comes down to saying "Its not working change" when they are behind and "Its working dont change" when they are ahead

In my singular experience at a tournament, I remember not actually being able to hear what my coach, or my friend who was cheering for me and trying to give me advice, was saying. Well, except for right before the last point when I noticed my friend tell me to flunge, and I thought to myself "Uh, no, I'm not an idiot" (I was fencing the number one seed, and he beat me like 15-4 or something. I don't think I could've caught him with a flunge). OTOH, I don't think my coach really had much advice to give me... I mean, he was simply BETTER than me; everything I tried just plain didn't work (except for a few lucky touches).

But, I imagine the placebo effect can be very useful, especially for a younger fencer. I seemed to be able to put myself into some kind of "zen" state of mind in the DE bouts, so I was thinking of anything other than how to get touches, and wasn't really conscious of anything around me, other than the ref and the lights.

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by Kenji

In my singular experience at a tournament, I remember not actually being able to hear what my coach, or my friend who was cheering for me and trying to give me advice, was saying. Well, except for right before the last point when I noticed my friend tell me to flunge, and I thought to myself "Uh, no, I'm not an idiot" (I was fencing the number one seed, and he beat me like 15-4 or something. I don't think I could've caught him with a flunge). OTOH, I don't think my coach really had much advice to give me... I mean, he was simply BETTER than me; everything I tried just plain didn't work (except for a few lucky touches).

Hehe. The reason you didn't get any advice from your coach in THAT bout was that your coach was also the referee! I'd have liked to have strip-coached you in your other bouts, but I was refereeing most of the time that day.

[Ordway]

Actually, I can add a few more thoughts on strip coaching after Reno. It was the first time I'd had my coach there for the whole event, including pools. The most useful effects were:

1. He helped prevent a total meltdown after fencing like a complete idiot in the first couple of bouts.

2. Touch by touch, he reinforced the right habits with praise or critique, followed up by debriefing after each bout.

3. Thanks to the tactical coaching, I feel that I have a much firmer grasp of how to "build" a bout. This involves making different tactical choices than I'd make for myself at the moment - but since I need to move past the tactical choices that I currently make (they're inadequate), this is exactly what I need.

Frankly, Reno was a disaster in terms of results for me, but in terms of a learning experience, I bet that it's going to end up being one of the most valuable tournaments I've gone to. Thanks to the on-the-spot feedback, I was able to "feel" how I was gaining - and losing - control of the bout, and what I have to do to get things right.

And I just have so much respect for my amazingly patient and supportive coach. I practically gave him a heart attack with some of the stuff I was doing... and then I had a mini emotional meltdown at the end. And he was just very supportive * and focused on how I was going to learn from this experience and move forward.

* "Supportive" doesn't disallow strong criticism, when it's called for - since he knows I can take it. "Tactically, you did EVERYTHING wrong in that bout" (which I won 5-4) was certainly memorable. And 100% correct.

[Kenji]

Originally Posted by Ordway

Hehe. The reason you didn't get any advice from your coach in THAT bout was that your coach was also the referee! I'd have liked to have strip-coached you in your other bouts, but I was refereeing most of the time that day.

OH!!! that's right! Well, now that all makes perfect sense

I guess I'll have to wait till my next tournament to form an opinion on strip coaching