Div I/Senior Team for Summer Nationals

[akaiyuki]

So what are the requirements for qualifying in Div I and Senior Team for summer nationals? I can't find anything in the athlete handbook. I'm looking at the So. Cal. division website, and it says to fence in the qualifier for Div I, fencers must be rated "A", "B" or "C" - However, some people told me that this is wrong because Div I team isn't rating restricted. I'm also wondering why there's no senior team qualifier (other than the senior PCC). Anyway, can anyone clarify this for me? Thanks.

[oiuyt]

Starting with this season all members of Div I teams at the National Championships must be classified C or better in that weapon*. The qualification paths for the two events remain the same. Division-level qualification, the number of teams that qualify is based on the number of teams entered in the qualifier and is specified in the AH. Going from memory (which is somewhat risky) rather than looking it up, I BELIEVE the numbers are:
1-3 clubs entered all qualify
4-5 clubs entered top 4 qualify
6-9 clubs entered top 5 qualify
10+ clubs entered top 6 qualify

For most divisions this is meaningless as 4 or fewer clubs bother to have teams at the qualifiers. Some divisions (mostly in CA, which means it could affect you) routinely have enough clubs entered that some clubs fail to qualify. Your division should have the qualifiers scheduled. With the change restricting the members of D1 teams this should now require two qualifiers (previously (and by previously I mean until a month ago) D1 and Senior team qualifiers could be run as the same event).

-B
*Actually, technically, the motion that was approved read:

That participation in the Division I team competitions, commencing with the 2006 Summer Nationals, is open only to those who have achieved the ratings of C and above.

Which, taken literally, just says that the participants must have, at some point, achieved a C in some weapon. I believe that any interpretation other than the one I used in my initial paragraph will be disallowed however.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Brad: I've got to spread some rep around before getting back to you, but I mainly wanted to say that you are an invaluable resource for this board.

Keep up the good work!

[mfp]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

With the change restricting the members of D1 teams this should now require two qualifiers (previously (and by previously I mean until a month ago) D1 and Senior team qualifiers could be run as the same event).

Why do you think two qualifiers are required this season? The motion states "commencing with the 2006 Summer Nationals". While this season's qualifiers may be for the 2006 nationals, the 2006 Summer Nationals have yet to "commence". The motion, as worded and approved, only appears to restrict participants in the 2006 (and later) Summer Nationals Div I team events to those with Cs and above.

It may be beneficial for certain divisions to run separate Div I and Senior Team qualifiers this year, but it doesn't read as required. It's also unclear if there's really even a requirement for separate team qualifying events next year as well.

Originally Posted by akaiyuki

I'm also wondering why there's no senior team qualifier (other than the senior PCC)).

The PCCs have nothing to do with qualifying teams for anything. The team events at PCCs are for fun.

[MTD]

Originally Posted by mfp

Why do you think two qualifiers are required this season? The motion states "commencing with the 2006 Summer Nationals". While this season's qualifiers may be for the 2006 nationals, the 2006 Summer Nationals have yet to "commence". The motion, as worded and approved, only appears to restrict participants in the 2006 (and later) Summer Nationals Div I team events to those with Cs and above.

Maybe something to do with this sentence in the USFA Operations Manual? "The qualifying competitions are considered the first rounds of the Nationals themselves."

[mrbiggs]

Are teams composed of competitors from different clubs allowed?

[akaiyuki]

I'm confused because on the so. cal. division website, link, it says "Div I and Senior Team events must be fenced seperately", but there's only Div I qualifier scheduled. I don't see a Senior Team qualifier anywhere... *pouts*

[stealingophelia]

few questions,
for the senior team, all fencers must at least be a C or is that for the Div1 only?
Also, can teammates be from diffrent divisions or must they all be from the same one, same question except same club from one division

thanks guys

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by stealingophelia

few questions,
for the senior team, all fencers must at least be a C or is that for the Div1 only?
Also, can teammates be from diffrent divisions or must they all be from the same one, same question except same club from one division

Unless they've changed the rules in the last month or so...

For Senior Team, the team can be all Unrated fencers. Doesn't matter. They just have to be old enough to compete in Senior events.

The teams represent clubs. All fencers on the team must have the same USFA club affiliation. In the Athlete's Handbook, they talk about qualification in terms of clubs, not teams. The team of people that qualifies is not necessarily the same team of people that fences the team event at Nationals. Once your club qualifies, it can send a different set of people to be on the team at Nationals (as long as they meet the rating and age requirements).

I don't have any good rules to quote you, but my club fielded a couple of senior teams at Nationals a couple of years ago, so I had to look it all up then.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by stealingophelia

for the senior team, all fencers must at least be a C or is that for the Div1 only?

D1 only. The change was made so that they wouldn't be nearly-identical events.

Originally Posted by stealingophelia

Also, can teammates be from diffrent divisions or must they all be from the same one, same question except same club from one division

They must be same club. Same division is not a requirement (the club qualifies in the division that the club belongs to).

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Are teams composed of competitors from different clubs allowed?

Composite teams haven't been allowed for several years now.

More when I'm back from pracitce.

-B

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Composite teams haven't been allowed for several years now.

More when I'm back from pracitce.

-B

Thank you very much.

I read the athlete's handbook, and I have two more questions. First, does it have to be a USFA member club? Second, how closely do they keep track of what clubs you've represented over the year? In other words, could I change my club now, even though I've already been to JOs (representing a different club)?

[mlr2fence]

I believe it has to be a USFA registered club, and once you compete in a USFA competition as a member of "X" club, thats your club for the entire year. You cannot chnge clubs to '"stack" a team.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by mfp

Why do you think two qualifiers are required this season?

Under the reasoning that one must be eligible for an event to participate in the qualifier. Although, actually, I can see a reasonable counter-argument based on the allowance for DII/III qualifiers to be mixed (although still limited to C and under).

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Does it have to be a USFA member club?

Yes.

-B

[mfp]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Under the reasoning that one must be eligible for an event to participate in the qualifier. Although, actually, I can see a reasonable counter-argument based on the allowance for DII/III qualifiers to be mixed (although still limited to C and under).

Jumping from that reasoning to a supposed blanket "requirement" that separate qualifiers always be run by a division seems unreasonable considering there are cases where it doesn't really gain anything. It's somewhat similar to fencing off for third in individual qualifiers -- go ahead and do it if it matters and actually determines a qual spot but don't require to do it in every event just because it might matter in some events.

Some team examples:

1) Say all teams show up with their best with nothing but A/B/C fencers. Why couldn't a division run a single combined Div1/Senior Team qual event in that case? Does the BoD really require these teams to fence two qual events?

2) Our division had 3 teams representing 3 clubs show up for divisional ME team quals. Two teams had nothing but A & B fencers. The third team had some Ds. What would be the point of fencing two separate team qual events be here?

It seems silly to free divisions from fencing off for 3rd place in individual comps in cases where it doesn't matter, but require them to (re)fence entire team events when it wouldn't affect qual spots.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

I believe it has to be a USFA registered club, and once you compete in a USFA competition as a member of "X" club, thats your club for the entire year. You cannot chnge clubs to '"stack" a team.

Thank you very much. (you too, oiuyt).

Just for the record, I wasn't trying to stack a team, the club I'm officially a part of ceased to exist two years ago and I never bothered to change it.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by Poulet

But it could, in the case I mentioned above.

In the cases it could make a difference, then fence two events. However it only possibly makes a difference in cases where teams from 5 or more clubs in a division show up for the event. The number of teams in the event doesn't matter for quals, it's the number of unique clubs represented that detemines the number of quals.

Originally Posted by ouiyt

Which, taken literally, just says that the participants must have, at some point, achieved a C in some weapon. I believe that any interpretation other than the one I used in my initial paragraph will be disallowed however.

This reminds me of the very unclear wording used in the qual path for Summer National Vet events, which includes:

VETERAN – must meet age eligibility requirements above AND compete in [one option ...] any NAC during the current season.

There's no mention of any requirements as to the type of NAC (or even weapon). A fencer who didn't fence in a Vet NAC but fenced in any Div III, II or I NAC during the current season would seem to meet the requirement as written. Is that the interpretation used?

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by mfp

This reminds me of the very unclear wording used in the qual path for Summer National Vet events, which includes:

VETERAN – must meet age eligibility requirements above AND compete in [one option ...] any NAC during the current season.

There's no mention of any requirements as to the type of NAC (or even weapon). A fencer who didn't fence in a Vet NAC but fenced in any Div III, II or I NAC during the current season would seem to meet the requirement as written. Is that the interpretation used?

I believe so, yes. Which, of course, means that it isn't unclear.

-B

[Peach]

Originally Posted by mfp

This reminds me of the very unclear wording used in the qual path for Summer National Vet events, which includes:

VETERAN – must meet age eligibility requirements above AND compete in [one option ...] any NAC during the current season.

There's no mention of any requirements as to the type of NAC (or even weapon). A fencer who didn't fence in a Vet NAC but fenced in any Div III, II or I NAC during the current season would seem to meet the requirement as written. Is that the interpretation used?

It means any NAC--the assumption being that if you have competed nationally in any of the NAC events that you are eligible for the veteran championships in your weapon and age group.