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01-16-2001, 07:52 AM

I have been to a few local and national events and noticed something very interesting that I need some input on. After an epee bout I have seen the fencers try to test their weapons with the weight and shims on the table the ref uses for prebout checking. SOme refs let it happen and some do not, infatc refuse to let that happen. I asked several different people about this and got some different answers. First, some told me that it was ok and not a big deal. However, others have told me that it is a delay of the bout and not allowed. Others yet told me that there was no rule against it and no provision to allow it. Esentially, if the ref wants to not allow it and the fencer wants to do it, neither have a leg to stand on when concerning the rules. Now we ll now that the ref can say no and the fencer has to go with it but I have seen the fencer appeal to the bout committee and the ref was asked to let it happen. So, we have a real problem, the rules do not support either position, the refs appear to be split in how they deal with this and if an appeal is made to the bout committee, it could go either way. Now, again, we all know that bout committee rulings go different ways depending on who you talked to but there seems to be no aggreement. The only rule that seems to apply is the delay of bout rule and no epee fencer should be allowed to check after the bout and they should have their own items to check off strip. But try to convince the epee people of that one.

any ideas?

Mergs · 01-16-2001, 08:54 AM

IMHO, if the fencer is using the equipment when the director is trying to test immediately prior to the bout, and refuses to stop or does so repeatedly, then I would invoke the delay of bout rule (solely at my discretion). There is no rule or understanding that I know of that prohibits the fencer from using the test equipment at the strip outside of that circumstance. I encourage it, with the exception noted above.

*~susan~* · 01-16-2001, 09:22 AM

well, it depends... see, many times I've heard coaches or instructors recommend that you test your weapon AFTER the bout. (IF done discretely) but then again, if it was BEOFRE the bout, then the director has a chance to call it as a delay of bouts -- weapons should be tested COMPLETELY before hooking on to the strip. same thing applies to your second "spare" weapon. it should be tested and ready to go to prevent "delays." but as far as checking your weapon once you have already fenced, Personally, I havent found a director whose had a problem (I ALWAYS check my epee after I fence) but then again, it may just depend on your director and what they see as a delay of bout...so basically, if you WANT to test and the director will LET you test, everything will be a-ok !!!
good luck

d8m2k · 01-16-2001, 09:28 AM

After a bout should not be a problem, yet I've had refs who whine about it. However, I've also had refs (at NAC's) who step out to have a smoke between bouts. Talk about your delays...
In addition, they don't mind at world cups if you test, so why should they here in the US, especially if there is no rule?

swordsen · 01-16-2001, 10:13 AM

IF there are alot of bouts left to be fenced and things are going slowly the ref will want you to get off the strip ASAP so he can get the next set hooked up and ready to go. Waiting for both fencers to check their weapon can slow things down alot. so it is a good idea to have a test box, shims and weights in your bag and do it off the strip.

Papa Blue · 01-17-2001, 12:40 AM

D8m2k

You are making big mistake with that one! You can't assume that just because they let you act like a grown up at the international level that you won't get one of the o so many petty "God that I'm cool/funny and should be the focus of attention on my strip" Refs that the USFA employs

The Pope

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Shut up and do footwork!

d8m2k · 01-17-2001, 07:00 AM

I know, I always expect too much. I just hope that the USFA would realize how the rest of the fencing community acts, and be cool with that. Instead, we try to enforce rules that don't exist, or in ways that just are not current anymore. And we wonder why US fencing is so far behind Europe.

Gav · 01-17-2001, 10:00 AM

Guy's I think I may be being a little stupid here but I don't quite understand what question is being asked. From what I gather from these posts this is something to do with testing your weapons after the bout. Is this true?

veeco · 01-17-2001, 11:32 AM

d8m2k:

I totally agree with you. I don't think that the USFA has to do 'everything like in Europe' to create great fencers.
Even better, they should thrive to create their own fencing style/rules (without going too far from the FIE, since that's after all the ruling organization).

US fencing will be more recognized as such if they have the creativity and the originality that big fencing nations in Europe used to have when fencing was at its peak in popularity.

HilandDoug · 01-17-2001, 12:53 PM

The question is whether a fencer can check his weapon immediately after he is done fencing. Is there another bout on deck? If so, it would be extremely rude to occupy the strip and delay the next bout. If I were the ref, I would not stand for it

veeco · 01-17-2001, 01:55 PM

I would stand for it. As a fencer, checkin my weapon after a bout is a matter of politeness for my next opponent.

Just like having an extra weapon at my end of strip will prevent any delay in the bout if my current weapon breaks, I am also taking one more extra caution to make sure that my weapon will be legal for my next bout so that my opponent won't have to wait for me to change weapon when the next bout comes.

As a referee, I would let it happen, because it doesn't take that long (about 5 seconds per fencer, and if they coordinate, it will even take less than 10 seconds). Also, it is a mark of professionalism from the fencers because it shows that they care about their equipment and will take the extra step for ensuring that they are fencing with the most concentration that they can.

About testing your weapon yourself before I test them on the strip, this is a definite no, and most of the time that would result in a yellow card if the weapon is defective.

d8m2k · 01-17-2001, 03:45 PM

HilandDoug:
Nothing personal, I really don't know you, but...
You are the Ref. I hate. Trying to enforce a non-existant rule. In most tournaments, there is plenty of time to check as the people on deck are not usually ready to hook up immediately after. It doesn't take long, and it saves much more time later. Every coach tells you to check, most of the fencers check, and there is plenty of time.

HilandDoug · 01-18-2001, 08:41 AM

d8m2k, if you had been at the last two tournaments I reffed at, you would understand. 98 fencers at one, 115 at the other, and we were there from 7am until almost 10pm. If ANYONE delayed anything, we would not have finished anything. But to qualify what I said earlier, if there were one pool of epeeists at a tournament where time was not a consideration, I would encourage the fencers to check weapons after the bout. In the case of the last two I reffed at, there was simply not enough time, and to take that much time from the next bout would have been rude.

d8m2k · 01-18-2001, 08:49 AM

NAC's and WC's are larger, yet there is still time and the top level refs allow it. It doesn't take long, and most experienced fencers would ignore you, after all there isn't any rule that you or the bout comittee would be able to enforce.

*~susan~* · 01-18-2001, 09:38 AM

d8,
i think what doug is trying to say is that, in some competitions like ones that i've been to before it is required that the fencer who is fencing is hooked up, the fencer who is "on deck" is hooked up to a seperate (unplugged) reel, and the person "in the hole" is waiting to get hooked up.

In other words, as soon as someone finishes fencing, the floor cords are switched to the next fencer hooked up to a reel, and they fence. At most it should take you a minute and a half to two minutes -- no time to test your weapon after you bout.

I understand what you are trying to say -- that its a good idea to test and all, but the real question comes down to how many people are in line to fence?

If there's quite a few it's only common courtesy, in my OPINION, that you unhook and get off the strip quickly, checking your weapon once you've stepped off...
your question is answered!!!

attila · 01-18-2001, 09:49 AM

This thread is lame. If you really want to speed up a pool. let the fencers check the gear at the end of the bout. It takes all of 8 seconds. Compare that to what it takes to check a bad weapon, check it again, give a yellow card, time to get to the bag/ beg borrow or steal a new weapon. assume the next doesn't work, check the new one again, etc.
Besides, given the variance on shims and weights, the ONLY testing equipment to trust is the one on your strip.

Attilla

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the beer"

Gav · 01-18-2001, 12:04 PM

Why would you test your weapons at the END of the bout? Weird.

People only test at the beginning.

If the bout is over it's pointless testing again. Most people I know carry test boxes so they go off and test elsewhere.

I don't understand the point in this thread!

Crash55 · 01-18-2001, 01:55 PM

I can safely say that I have never seen anyone test their weapon immediately following the bout. Then again, with the exception of qualifiers, it is rare that we check wepons outside of the top 8 around here and even that is not that common. To be on the safe side I have one weapon that is right on the edge of failing and one that will pass no matter what shims they use. The last time I was at a tournament where they checked every bout I spent most of my time between bout checking / fixing my weapon. It would pass one bout and fail teh next every time.

Matt · 01-18-2001, 02:40 PM

Doesn't anyone have a test-box? I've never seen fencers checking their weapons after a bout on the strip, but I regularly see them go over to their bag and check them themselves. If you've really got to check your weapon right away keep a set of shims and a test box with your spare weapon.

Matt Pearsall
fencermatt@yahoo.com

veeco · 01-18-2001, 02:57 PM

Just as Attila said, it is not pointless to test your weapon with the shims & weights from the strip because they might be different than those that are in your bag.

More than once I noticed that there was a significant enough difference to make my weapon pass with my testing devices and fail on the strip.

Again, that time lost checkin your weapon is worth investigating to gain that time you would spend changing weapons. Furthermore, if your favorite weapon is out of the legal range after a bout, if you notice it just at the beginning of your next bout, it is too late to fix it. If you notice it right at the end of your bout, you still have plenty of time to fix it and you will be able to fence with your favorite weapon (can shift the result of your next bout).

Test boxes have different behaviors than regular boxes. Unless you can afford a real box, the only thing that those cheap test boxes tell you is that some current can pass or not. There are much more to that in those real boxes. The resistance is different, there are much more components involved, and I have seen weapons pass on the test box and fail on the strip, with the same testing devices.