From whence does the 500N tip come?

[thud]

As I understand it,foil was originally designed to mimic deadly combat. The target area reflects this lethality upon the opponent, and the Right-Of-Way philosophy reflects this lethality upon oneself. Epee, on the other hand, was designed to mimic a duel. The allowed distal targets (arms, legs) deemphasize killing hits, and the miniscule lockout time puts greater value on touching first rather than preserving life. For the most part, these ideas make sense for their weapons.

But what doesn't make sense to me are the tip depression pressures exhibited in modern fencing. The electric foil tip only requires 500N of force, whereas the electric epee tip requires 750N. If foil was supposed to mimic deadly combat (mediated by penetrating thrusts), how did modern foil end up with only a 500N attack?

[edew]

It's equivalent to the force of a 500gm weight, not 500N, which is significantly greater. 1N = 1Kgm/s^2. A 500gm mass will have a weight of 4.9N. So a 500N force would be equivalent to about 50Kg mass pressing down at sea-level acceleration due to gravity.

Regardless of the units nitpicking, I have no idea of where they decided on the 500gm mass for foil and 750gm for epee.

On the other hand, I'd hate to carry a 500N testweight on my back pocket all day. "Hey, is that an epee test weight in your pocket or are you happy to see me?"

[Purple Fencer]

You mean 500 grams, not newtons....different measurements; one is force, the other is mass.

Not sure HOW the numbers came up, but 500 and 750 g are the approximate weight of a foil and epee (respectively)

Now...as to why the epee lockout is 40 milliseconds...back in 1936 when the weapon was first electrified, the boxes were relay switches....and that was teh fastest switch they could find.

[kalivor]

As Purple has said, the pressures are approximately equal to the weight of the weapons. This leads me to formulate two theories:

i. For testing purposes -- your tip must be able to support the weapon's weight.

ii. Avoidance of a hit "by accident" -- as these weights are actually equal to the *maximum* weight of the weapon, it ensures that additional force is required to make a hit.

That being said, I really don't know. I like my second theory better than the first one.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by kalivor

As Purple has said, the pressures are approximately equal to the weight of the weapons. This leads me to formulate two theories:

i. For testing purposes -- your tip must be able to support the weapon's weight.

ii. Avoidance of a hit "by accident" -- as these weights are actually equal to the *maximum* weight of the weapon, it ensures that additional force is required to make a hit.

That being said, I really don't know. I like my second theory better than the first one.

It was explained to me that, in the days of dry bouting, the hit was defined by a slight bend in the blade, and the 500g is a pretty close approximation of this. Or was at the time. No idea if that's true...

Epee, being a stiffer blade, and being that the hand would be way to easy to hit, requires a heavier pressure.

[Frater_Frag]

If I remember it correctly, back in the early days of electric fencing, there was the question about how much force you should have to use in order to get a touch. 500N was the final result for foil, based on the fact that with 500N and a sharp weapon, you can penetrate a human body, this was in fact checked by a german physician, was also involved in this 500N bussiness.

[thud]

Originally Posted by Frater_Frag

500N was the final result for foil, based on the fact that with 500N and a sharp weapon, you can penetrate a human body...

Perhaps, but this doesn't explain the difference in pressure between epee and foil. If epee is about dueling, and foil is about combat, shouldn't foil be the one with the tougher tip?

[thud]

Originally Posted by achilleus

It was explained to me that, in the days of dry bouting, the hit was defined by a slight bend in the blade, and the 500g is a pretty close approximation of this. Or was at the time. No idea if that's true...

Epee, being a stiffer blade, and being that the hand would be way to easy to hit, requires a heavier pressure.

That's definately reasonable, but wasn't classical epee fenced with those lil pricky things that stick onto the opponent's jacket?

[foilz]

The epee (or its equivalent) was the weapon of the duel.

One touch, and presumably, if you were good, you killed, or depending on the code of the duel, seriously wounded your opponent, or in the case of lilly-livered opponents, you drew blood, or even a scratch.

Sometimes a scratch was a face-saver that ended a stupid duel.

Training for a duel (which would happen later with an epee or its equivalent) was conducted with a dandy little weapon called the foil.

You learned and perfected your skills with the foil.

You dueled with a sharp-bladed epee (or its equivalent).

Perhaps that's the reason the epee carries weight (literally) today. The foil never mimicked deadly combat. Epee did.

Foil was the salon weapon that helped you train for deadly combat.

***

Stop reading now if you hate gore.

***

Interestingly, an epee has a blood groove, a foil doesn't. The blood groove was designed to channel, well, allow b-l-o-o-d, and other stuff, to flow smoothly out of the g-u-t-s of your opponent, so your thrust pierced without bursting your opponent and you could withdraw your blade faster.

Sabres, on the other hand, were two things.

One, they were originally cutlasses, i.e., slashing swords, of great weight, that allowed drunken sailors to hack the limbs off sailors on defeated ships.

Two, they were cavalry swords, i.e., slashing and cutting weapons that allowed cavalry officers and other horsemen to ride into the opposing forces, powerfully sweep the curved weapon, and remove the arm/head/leg of the opposing horseman in close combat.

Nice, isn't it?

Our sport is in the Olympics for one reason.

When the modern Games were re-invented by Baron de Coubertin, in 1896, a lot of military activities were included.

Even today, that's why we see biathlon in the winter Olympics -- skiing and shooting. It's a "sport" for alpine military troops.

Same with equestrian (cavalry and military). Shooting (military). And so on.

Fencing was always part of the training -- not necessarily for infantry officers -- but for cavalry. And there were a lot of cavalry regiments (horse-mounted fighting troops) in the countries of Europe in the late 1800's.

The Olympics are fabulous. They are also anachronistic. Maybe that's why we love (and hate) them.

Interestingly, the last cavalry stand in the 20th century was a futile attempt by Polish cavalry early in World War II (1939) to repel the blitzkreig by Nazi troops.

There is great tradition, and great honor, in our sport.

We should rejoice in it.

[Relampago]

Bring back the capteur!

[son_of_academe]

Here Here!... I guess.

[thud]

Originally Posted by foilz

The epee (or its equivalent) was the weapon of the duel.

One touch, and presumably, if you were good, you killed, or depending on the code of the duel, seriously wounded your opponent, or in the case of lilly-livered opponents, you drew blood, or even a scratch.

Sometimes a scratch was a face-saver that ended a stupid duel.

Training for a duel (which would happen later with an epee or its equivalent) was conducted with a dandy little weapon called the foil.

You learned and perfected your skills with the foil.

You dueled with a sharp-bladed epee (or its equivalent).

Perhaps that's the reason the epee carries weight (literally) today. The foil never mimicked deadly combat. Epee did.

Foil was the salon weapon that helped you train for deadly combat.

Well, your account is pretty different from any that I have already heard. Do you think that the modern rules of epee and foil (target area, right-of-way, lockout time) jell with it?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by foilz

Stop reading now if you hate gore.

Hate is a bit strong. Sure he didn't know how to run a campaign, but I really blame the stupidity of the American people.

[thud]

Originally Posted by Jason

Hate is a bit strong. Sure he didn't know how to run a campaign, but I really blame the stupidity of the American people.

har har

[foilz]

Originally Posted by thud

Well, your account is pretty different from any that I have already heard. Do you think that the modern rules of epee and foil (target area, right-of-way, lockout time) jell with it?

Well, they never timed anything back then. No electricity.

I don't know that electonic target times have anything to do with anything, except the adjudication of a global sport like fencing in a era of technology.

Those criteria apply to sport fencing, of course. To the history of fencing, of course not.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by thud

Perhaps, but this doesn't explain the difference in pressure between epee and foil. If epee is about dueling, and foil is about combat, shouldn't foil be the one with the tougher tip?

Think of the relative sizes of the blade and consider both have the same sharpness. The Epee cross-section is larger. You must apply more force to gain the same penatration, then you would with the smaller cross-section of the Foil.

[HDG]

Forgive my lack of a physics background, but why is the standard for mask mesh in kilograms while the bib and clothing are in newtons?

[telkanuru]

Mainly because the FIE is retarded.

[fencerbill]

Mesh is tested by compressing a spring, a static test. The fabrics are tested by impact of a defined shape tip while the fabric is clamped in a defined frame, a dynamic test.

[telkanuru]

And yet, units for force do not differ based on the situation, so I stick by my previous statement.