From whence does the 500N tip come?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Poulet

Yeah, they do. The mask mesh test is the equivalent of resting a weight on the mesh. The bib test is the equivalent of ramming a weight into the bib.

One is mass. The other is force.

The punch test exerts FORCE on the mask while the 800N test exerts FORCE on the cloth. You need to stop talking about things you really don't understand.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by HDG

Forgive my lack of a physics background, but why is the standard for mask mesh in kilograms while the bib and clothing are in newtons?

Threadjacking!

Threadjacking!

[HDG]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Threadjacking!

Threadjacking!

Helpful

[Duellist USA]

Originally Posted by thud

As I understand it,foil was originally designed to mimic deadly combat. The target area reflects this lethality upon the opponent, and the Right-Of-Way philosophy reflects this lethality upon oneself. Epee, on the other hand, was designed to mimic a duel. The allowed distal targets (arms, legs) deemphasize killing hits, and the miniscule lockout time puts greater value on touching first rather than preserving life. For the most part, these ideas make sense for their weapons.

But what doesn't make sense to me are the tip depression pressures exhibited in modern fencing. The electric foil tip only requires 500N of force, whereas the electric epee tip requires 750N. If foil was supposed to mimic deadly combat (mediated by penetrating thrusts), how did modern foil end up with only a 500N attack?

Well as I understand it...you sorta have these backwards. Foil were a "gentleman's weapon" and as such duels were quite often to first blood and rarely to the death as most cities soon outlawed dueling to the death...think the Musketeers and the fact they dueled OUTSIDE the city walls...whereas epees were a soldiers weapon..ie the blood groove mentioned and the fact the blade grew wider thereby making a larger hole which would not close up upon the blades removal (think of the tri blades used by special forces in WWII) allowing your enemy to bleed out even if it wasnt a fatal blow...

This can also be shown by the fact foil has a limited target area which follows a duel (goal was honor not necessarily to kill) where epee the entire body was target allowing serious wounding and death..

First blood does not take alot of force as that could often be a scratch depending on the rules...whereas soldiers were expecting to maim/kill thier enemies...


But what do I know...I could be wrong...


Rick

[keropie]

I've always heard that sport epee grew out of Napoleonic officers dueling with their weapons that had a circle of steel welded on to prevent dangerous penetration, and dueled to first blood only. Foil I've always heard as a training weapon for dueling, so they included vital targets, discounted the head (at the time, there was no good way to protect the head sufficiently), and used ROW to attempt to enforce treatment of the weapons as sharps (clearly this hasn't stayed consistent as fencing has grown).

HTH